Michael Palumbos: Welcome everybody. I'm your host Michael Palumbos with family, wealth and legacy in Rochester New York, you're are now joining the Family Biz show. We have a great show for you today. We're really excited to bring Kathy Carroll and Mike Goldman to have some wonderful discussions about leadership and Building leadership teams or wrote a great book called Breakthrough Leadership teams. Did I get that correct, Mike?
Mike Goldman: No, plural. Just breakthrough leadership team.
Michael Palumbos: There you go. Breakthrough leadership team. Kathy and Know each other through the purposeful Planning Institute. Yeah, and she came. Supported us when we had we launched Family Business Day, upstate New York family. December, we'll see if that gets to play out this year or not or if we're have to come. Continue and then continue doing this virtually. You know our topic today, like we said. This can create and lead incredible teams. What I want to do is uh, I just. You to take a couple of minutes and introduce yourself, kind of give us a little bit of your background how you got there. You know how you come to be doing what you're doing today. So Kathy, if you wouldn't mind, you know, kind of. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Cathy Carroll: Family business. My grandfather was the original entrepreneur in our family. There was, there was a lot of drama in the family went that the corporate track and spent 20 years. Roles I started as an actuary and then. Travel industry and got an MBA. Uh and then in 2009, my father sucked me back into our family businesses. So I left the the corporate world and joined as President, Chief Operating officer of my father's manufacturing business. It literally ropes and saddles and training equipment for team ropers. And that's when I really had a unique opportunity to compare leadership in a family business with leadership in a in a public company. And it's like two different worlds with very, very different. And it was a, it was a really incredible. And I had the privilege of leading a turn around with some really terrific colleagues. And then I left and started my business legacy onward to help family, business leaders thrive. Now that I realize now at the moment when I recognized how different the leadership challenges were, III realized I could have used a coach when I was. Feeding my father's business, my family's business, and now I have the privilege of being able to. So I'm really pleased.
Michael Palumbos: And welcome. We're glad you're here today. Mike Goldman, tell us about yourself and what brings you here.
Mike Goldman: How'd you get what is your journey? My journey. So I coach leadership teams, So what I do some family businesses. A lot of businesses aren't family, so I've got both experiences. In a coaching consultant for the last 30 years or so, first half of my career was working for big consulting firms. If You've heard of Accenture and Deloitte, two different consulting firms working with all Fortune 500 companies. Last half of my career has been my own business, working with leadership teams. And what really drives me is, you know, I believe that everybody should have the chance to feel fulfilled. And the way I do that is by working with leadership teams to help them create great companies that people want to come work for, great companies where people can learn and grow and feel fulfilled. So that's that. That's my journey and I think it will be a. Sending one that I. Really fell in love with so love what I do every day.
Michael Palumbos: Well, again welcome to you both. We've got two different parts of the country, mikes and Jersey and Kathy and Texas and Antonio. So welcome and. Being here today. Get together for a little bit to start having these conversations and say how does. Why? Why did I say Kathy and Mike? You guys would be a great team together and this would be a wonderful conversation and that you know exactly for that that purpose that Kathy your focus has been on developing of leadership skills and Mike's focus is on developing leadership teams and I just thought that they were just a really neat you know, combination to be able to put this all together.
Mike Goldman: You know, one of the first things, you know that we talked about. Is, you know, the first decision? Company must get right. You know, I was hoping this, Mike, you know you. We must get right. It's it's the decision on who you're going to surround yourself with. You know, for a lot of businesses, family, but. Why is it may start out with someone around the kitchen table and and barking out orders to maybe one or two other people that that that are helpers but one of the questions I asked my clients. In fact, it's one of the first questions I asked my clients. And again, my clients are leadership teams. My chance to do it all over again. Enthusiastically rehire. On your team. When I say that, I know. Some Snickers. I get some, really. Works because that's that's normally not the case and and I think the challenge and. This is an area we'll probably go a little. Or, but I'll stay at a high level here. I think the challenge is, you know, it's one thing for my corporate clients I work with that are not family businesses when I talk. That's with the right people. The biggest mistake CEOs make is they keep the wrong person on the leadership team. So I coach them and had to have that difficult, make that difficult decision, have that difficult discussion. But it's certainly one thing to say, you know, hey Joe who heads up operations, he's just the wrong person. We've got to have a difficult decision with Joe. We got to cut the cord and find a new head of operations. And Joe was Uncle Joe. So that's that's let, I'm gonna leave it at that. So I think that'll be an interesting discussion. But to me that's the first decision is starting with the leadership team and then cascading down throughout the company that decision around who you're going to surround yourself with and and the decision of of who you're going to keep and and who you're going to send off to go work for the competition.
Michael Palumbos: Perfect. Kathy before I I know you want to comment on that and put some pieces I think now would be a really interesting time. We we created a couple of polls and I think this is right. It leads right into the conversation that we're having here. I am going to just put the first. Just one up there and I've set these things up if everybody could just, it's a true or false Paul. I just launched it. It's anonymous. And the question that you know, Kathy had poses, you know, have I regretted terminating someone's employment too soon? And I just got two answers. Great. Thank you. Every OK everybody's. No. So they they came back as as. 1. That never regret, you know, firing somebody. Terminating somebody too soon when you're talking about, you know. You know, leadership teams or leaders are making to grow their leadership team or grow themselves as leaders. Kathy, what are some of the first things that you're pushing leaders to be thinking about it is this the, the, the thing that you must get right as a as a growing business, right.
CC: Yeah, OK. Different I I really like Mike's answer. Getting the right leadership team in place is is critically important, and there are a few other things that I think are helpful too. I really like starting with why I like Simon cynics. Start with why concept. Because entrepreneurship and leadership of any organization can be. Be heard on occasion and when you've tapped into when you. Internal why? You have access to some resilience and some grit that can carry you through these difficult times. So I would say starting with your why can be a very help. Way to go. And this is going to be a little surprising to those of you who know me. I'm going to say. They can't. Up. Growing a rapidly growing business is the cash you? Get the cash bit right and. he cash bit rate, the whole thing falls apart and it's funny because when I got my. My masters in business. I spent a lot of time in in the finance world focusing on earnings reports and. Accrual based accounting things and the whole cash thing really did. Radar until I was operating my own business. And then I realized, oh, OK. Now I now I now I get why cash is king. And I think when you're. In particular it's it's. As soon as you're out of cash and you have no. Additional resources you're you're really in. And it's hard to overcome that so. That and the reason why that's an unusual response for me because as a leadership coach, I'm working normally in the in the hearts and souls of leadership, not not on the balance sheet and the income statement per cash flow statement.
MP: I don't think that you would get any pushback from either Mike or I on that one. You know, without cash, it's game over. Companies, especially growing companies. You pay attention to that and there's there's some formulas and something. And look at that. Without looking at them, they get they get out of whack pretty fast cash. Uncle. And you know. The power of the power of 1, I think we've seen that before, which is a a great tool for cash flow story. Thank you. That's a great answer. Appreciate that.
Mike Goldman: The other thing I I would add there Kathy to support what you're saying and and maybe tie it to. Is I think the reason why the cash is so important, it's. To put more money in their pockets, although there's. The cash is important because it's the cash that fuel. To live that purpose, Kathy, that you talked about without the cash you can't achieve. That, whatever your purpose is, ain't happening if you don't have the fuel.
MP: Great so Who are we going to surround ourselves with? Making sure. The cash and. All these things into perspective. You and I and you know, OK, and I have heard you talk about this before. Tap into, you know, the emotional intelligence in terms of leadership.
CC: Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics. When the Subjective emotional intelligence emerged in the mid 90s. The research showed that it wasn't just IQ that predicted outperformance and leadership and ended up being something different. And it was. That they eventually called emotional intelligence. And the IQ matters. You need to have a. But it is in the relationships that you have with other people, the empathy that you have for other perspectives, the awareness of your own emotions and how your own emotions are driving your behavior, and your ability to manage those emotions in a way that's constructive and relationship building. Have a profound impact on amping up the effectiveness of your leadership. Emotional intelligence is something that I I work. My clients aren't quite a bit and it's. Continues. It's a gift that keeps on giving. So I'm a, I'm a, I'm a strong advocate and. I think it's it's a real game changer for family and non family leaders.
MP: Love it. I just finished reading Think about the books that I read. A trillion dollar coach. Well worth the read. I'd highly recommend it. It's Eric Schmidt from Google talking about Bill Campbell, who was a former football coach turned into Umm, you know, he ended up, he was the CEO of Intuit at one point he got dragged out to from the East Coast to the West Coast and and just everything about Bill shouldn't have hit it. Silicon Valley? He was a hugger. He was. Umm, but he loved people and he loved every person and it was really neat. So he never wanted to do a book. But after he passed, Eric Schmidt and some of the other people that have been his, you know, mentees got together and said the world needs to understand. You know more about this guy and it's exactly what you're saying. EQ and his ability to have. Patients and and do the right thing. There's a lot of great. Read the book. He was that good to go back and say we really need to focus on what this person is doing. So trillion dollar coach by Eric Schmidt. You gotta figure if Eric Schmidt is telling you you're writing a book about somebody's probably good reading material. Michael emotional intelligence and the the value in you know leadership and within the team. Thoughts?
Mike Goldman: Critical. I'll I'll relate it to what's going on for all of us today. Always critical, but but I'm seeing it. I'm really seeing the difference in my clients today, those CEO's, those leaders. National intelligence or it's not black and white but with lower emotional intelligence are really having a difficult time relating to their employees through this crisis we're going through relating to their vendors, relating to their, their clients through this crisis and those folks with. For getting through it really well and I'm gonna zero in on on one piece. What one aspect? I guess I'd. Intelligence. And that's vulnerability. To talk about books, Pat Lencioni is an author I love. Read anything you can from him and his book the five dysfunctions of a team. One of them he talks about vulnerability. And what I see around emotional intelligence these days is. Tendency to think they need to put their superhero cape on and be strong and perfect. For the company, we're doing amazing. I'm not worried about. And by the way, by the end. Open up that bottle of Scotch you know, until, until. But the bigger impact? If we believe we need to be superheroes for our people, which, by the way, doesn't sound so horrible, of course we need to be strong for our. If we are trying to show that we're perfect for our. They think they need to be perfect as well, and they're not. None of us are. And and in this environment and this. Um. So. Do something that. But. We need to. And. You know. Huddled crying in a corner. And those distraction? Parent. Or other things. You share what? What you're not. With our people, our leaders, our employees. Slowly getting back to what our new normal's gonna be...We need our Be honest with us. Where they're having a challenge and if we're being superheroes and they're not being honest with us, we're gonna go back to work and think. And then? And we're not gonna shoot. Be sure why. So that that emotional intelligence and especially that vulnerability aspect of it, it is critical.
Michael Palumbos: Love it. To win that that vulnerability builds trust and you go back. This book is, if you're allowed, allowing yourself to be. People trust that more, and it's funny that. That might because I'm, I'm, I was just asked to speak at the I think it's tech Rochester. So it's like the, you know, all the tech startups that are doing things. And I'm doing a a piece. Turn on trust for all these tech people so I have nothing to do with. Technology, and I don't know tech, but I understand. Vulnerability. So I think that's a really good point. I appreciate that. You know, before we move off of emotional intelligence...I wanna ask you when you The lead. describe emotional intelligence, what are some of the Leaders can be vulnerable and build trust and share with their teams. You know what? What are some of the other ways that, you know, emotional intelligence helps leaders to be able to run their tenure?
Cathy Carroll: So leader emotional intelligence has been organized in a little bit of a matrix. The mat Because the neuroscience... It starts with self-awareness. Is self-awareness that you're having an emotion Has shown that our behavior, our actions come from our emotions and our emotions come from our assumptions and our beliefs. So if we actually want to change our results, we have to check in with our assumptions and beliefs, which drive the emotion, which drive the behavior, which drive the actions, which gets the results. Awareness of the emotion is really about a fundamental prerequisite in the domain of emotional intelligence to be able to lead. Because when we're in a place of reactivity, when we're leading from a reactive space instead of a creative space or a responsive space, we are. And when we are aware of our emotions, we have our emotions, and we have the ability to put some space between that stimulus. Of the emotion and the response as. To no space which is trigger reaction in the same. So. Creating that space, even if it's. Take two deep breaths can radically change. It could be much more intent. The second part of the Matrix Self management. Once you're aware of your emotions, how do you manage yourself with those emotions? Do you allow yourself to react or do you create the conditions for a more mindful, planned, deliberate response with a longer term end game in mind, which is a nice segue to the third quadrant? Which is the social awareness quadrant, and in the domain of social awareness, it's understanding the emotional dynamics of the other stakeholders in the situation. No longer looking inward, but it's actually looking outward. And you ask questions. What do other people think about this situation? What do other people need? This dynamic what are their feelings? What are their emotions that might be driving their perspectives? Releasing your attachment to your. World and opening your mind and your heart to. Ways of seeing the situation, knowing that your way is one way, but not necessarily the universal one way. There are multiple ways you can see a circumstance and it's really important in leadership to be able to understand why does Michael see it from this perspective and how does he see it? How does Mike Goldman see it, how does Kay see it, and how are all those things connected? Which then leads to the final quadrant, which is really. And that's where rubber hits the road in leadership. That's where you're building relationships, earning people's trust, driving results by inspiring strong followership. And it's by leveraging all of those domains of emotional Intel. Does that help fill out?
Michael Palumbos: That's perfect. Mike, you've been working. You know, leaders and leadership teams. Your work and talking about you know I I got stuck on emotional intelligence here so I hope you don't mind, you know I've kind of come back to this but. Being emotional intelligence inside of teams grow overtime. Can it be learned?
Mike Goodman: Absolutely. And and a big part of it Is focus and then I'll go back Kathy to it. What you said about emotions being such a driver and one of the things I've learned and and it's the thing I I focus on with my leaders from day one is leaders tend to be very. Very skilled at talking about what they do. About toxic people they don't want around about a recession that's coming that they don't want about whatever it is. Meters are great at talking about all the things they don't want. But when you turn around and say, alright, I understand that you're really upset with your team because they're not doing this and they're not doing this and they're. But what is it that you want? On their silence. And it's almost like the first time they're thinking about that question, which is a. And one of the things I've learned that you can absolutely coach. Absolutely impacts your emotions is you gotta focus on what you want, don't focus on what you don't want, I promise you for anybody listening to this. Having a negative emotion. Motion, maybe frustration. It may be anger, it may be. It may be fear when you're having a negative emotion, I will guarantee you. Focused on what you don't want. No way you're having a negative emotion focused on something you want. It's just. Things don't mix in your head, so if you're having a negative emotion. Wallow in it. Understand it like Kathy said there. Between having that emotion and acting where you could. Be proactive instead of. If you're having that negative emotion, understand, OK, I'm focused on something I don't want. What do I want? And when you focus on what you want. That motion is going to shift to a much more powerful emotion. Curiosity. I get that it may be an emotion of excitement. Of anticipation or maybe even happiness or fulfillment. But that is absolutely cultural. I don't think someone, well, here they are. They've got, they've got a low emotional intelligence. I guess I can't work with them. Thank God it's coachable. Or I probably wouldn't be here talking to you today. I'd be somewhere, somewhere very different. Lonely and upset, I'd be the one whimpering in the corner, so absolutely it's coachable.
Michael Palumbos: Yeah, and it's not to beat a dead horse with That the trillion dollar court, trillion dollar coach, he, Eric Schmidt needed a coach. And one of the things that Bill Campbell taught him is that Eric. You have the answers. To pause like Kathy said, and not respond when somebody asked. Put something out there and. Noodle on it. Let let them discover the answer. That's how you're going to make a better team when the team is coming up with the solutions rather than you telling him what the solutions are.
Mike Goldman: So that's just a powerful way of like say the challenge. And Kathy, you are probably more schooled on this than I, Yeah, but I've seen it, the challenge for family businesses. Is it's amazing when I, when I, when I work with non family businesses. When I talked to them about culture and respect and vulnera. And all those things they think Wow family business is already have their family. And corporations that we want to be a family. Time out before you say you want to be a family, because I'll tell you most of the family businesses. They act in a leadership setting the same way they act around the kitchen table. Necessarily respectful. Not a lot of emotional intelligence, they're very often and it's amazing how they talk to each other. When you've got. Family on the leadership team site. Man, they they wanna, they wanna crawl out of that room because. Or how how Dad and son are beating each other up. Or the brothers. Each other. That emotional intelligence, that that vulnerability. It is even more difficult in a family business because you think you could act around the conference room table the way you act around the dinner table. And man, that stuff doesn't fly if you want to create a great business. That's a perfect segue today. You know the next question which is you know from a topic perspective how do you manage or how to how to manage family members you know that are in the business and balance that with you know. And the non family members that are in the business? From a leadership perspective. You know, take that emotional, you know? Uh quotient and put that in there. When we're talking about that, Kathy, how do you, how does the leader manage those pieces? What should they be doing versus what shouldn't they be doing?
Cathy Carroll: It's a complex question because the role of family member is in many ways defined by our cultural experience. The role of business professional is Defined by our cultural experience. And when we're in a family business, the rules of engagement on the family side are often about. Hearing and fairness and and sort of equity for everyone. Bills on the business side are more along the lines of competition and meritocracy. And so you've got these. Rules that are in direct conflict with each other because the family norms of behavior are different than the business norms of behavior. And so when you're engaging in these conversations at, one of my favorite examples of this is is setting compensation in a family business. It's unheard of outside of a family business for everyone to get paid the same. Come in in a family business for everyone in the business. To if they're if their last name. The door. They earn the same amount of money whether it's the CEO or the stockroom. And here's the logic according to family rules. That's right, where all members of the family. Get paid the same. We're all contributing to this. And it's logical when you use. It's utterly a failure. When you use business rules, it does not does not translate well. And so I think when you're in. Family business domain and. Conversation with another family member. It can be very, very helpful to be transparent about what hat you're wearing. So if I'm wearing the mom hat, then I'm going to say, look, I'm going to be mom in this moment and I'm going to have a conversation with you as as your mother. And then when I'm back to my CEO person, I'm going to say now I'm putting my business hat on and I'm going to be the CEO. To the the objectives that you agreed to in the first place. So it's it's being super transparent about the hat that you're wearing in the moment. So you can have that. Favorite expressions? Is that radically candid? Kim Scott's book Radical Candor, which is both caring and direct. You could have a direct and caring conversation with your family member where you're not pulling punches, you're not indirect or avoiding things. You're not uncaring and harsh. You are coming from a place of love and form of communication.
Michael Palumbos: Perfect, Michael. What are your thoughts on family members? Non family members and balancing that that the balancing act?
Mike Goldman: It's a crazy heart issue. I think you know it. It gets back to. Talked about at the very beginning where where I think if you want to create. You want to create a great company. You gotta, you gotta have a great leadership team. You just can. I don't know if any sustainable. Any without a great leadership team, it doesn't work. Now you have some that maybe they had a great idea and they were, you know. When they sold to Google for a billion dollars and they didn't have a great leadership team, they just had a great idea. But it's sustainably great company. You need great leadership team. So I think it's a family business. You have to decide what it is you want. And if you want a, great. Then you're gonna have to make some really hard decisions. And if Uncle Joe is running operations and Uncle Joe is a toxic player who's not living the core values of the organization. Not productive. And man, you gotta have a difficult conversation with Uncle. And of course, Uncle Joe may not be the right person to be on the leadership. Get it. If you're number one, priority is. This family together, and it's not about having a great company. We want to keep this company going and we're OK. Good. What? Maybe you could postpone having that differ? Patient with Uncle Joe, but I think you gotta be open and honest about. You want and if you want a great company. It's not. Excuse to say, well, Uncle Joe's been there for, you know, thirty years, and I'm really uncomfortable having that conversation. He's, he's gonna retire in 15 years. So let's just hold off. Do you want to be a great company? That's not an excuse. OK, you know, if you're a family business watching this, listen. And it's not important that you. Really great company. Or bad person, that's OK. There are a lot of companies that are that sustain themselves and they get by and have a happy family. If that's what you want, that's OK just be open and honest about it and admit to it and it It'll drive the decisions you need to make or you don't need to make sense.
Michael Palumbos: When you talk about building a leadership team, Are you telling? Of the leaders, what are you telling the CEOs that are building? Bishop teams regardless of family owned or not family owned. What are some of the things that you're looking for? You want them to be looking for?
MG: That in my book, I break it down into 66. It's gotta start off with self leadership. You think you gotta get right in. How do I hire the right? If you are not the right person for the job. If you're not managing your emotion. Not leveraging your sprains? Then you gotta problem to begin with. They are. So number one, it's about self leadership. You've really got to think about structuring your leadership team for now and for the future. For most organizations, the the way they know they now need a head of customer service is when customer service is failing and things are falling through the cracks. Oh my God, our head of operations is now handling too much. We need to. Service you need to to. Coming out in your business II stress with. That they need a 12 quarter forecast, I know that's a long time, but a 12 quarter forecast for their business on how sale, you know what's happening with sales, what's happening with cash, what's happening with the number of widgets you're producing, what's happening with the number of of clients and look at that over time and plan out the structure of your leadership team. You know, nine months from now, given your plan, you need to separate out your VP of Sales and marketing into a VP of Marketing and VP of Sales. Know that now, so you could start working at it before you fail. So number one, it's self leadership. Number two, it's about structuring the team, #3, it's about defining the right culture. Talk about culture. I talk about values. Vision. Vulnerability on the team. So. It's about. Process in place to find the right people for the team. Having the right disciplines around executing. And then lastly what I talk about is. Develop and improve as the team which is never ending. How do you learn together as a team? Process in place for that learning and how do you assess the team? And this is where the problem with Uncle Joe. Poor uncle Joe. I keep picking on him. The problem with Uncle Joe comes back into. You need to assess your team. And understand on your leadership team and then cascade down who your A players, B players, CD players and what I call toxic CD players, CD players, someone who's just really low in productivity. The toxic C player is someone who's hurting their culture, who's not living the core values. You've got to do that quarterly and be willing to make. Around dealing with your CD players and toxic CD players and frankly I believe to have a great company and a great leadership team. Can't even have B players on your leadership team. Your leadership team needs to be. A players. If you have any B players, they need to have the potential to become a players within six months. The wrong fit for your team. So I just said a mouthful of stuff, but those are all the things I really think you need to get moving on to create a great leadership.
MP: Kathy, I would I want to bounce off of what Mike was talking about there for a second. When when do families, you know, make that decision, you know that decision of we're going to start. Productivity, you know, from the player. Where did they fit? How do they you know? Taken to the family how do they how do they fit into the family business rather and and how are they grading them. You know it's it's that taking the taking it from a family that's running a business to a business that just happens to be run by a family that that professionalism that happens. Conversation. Come in. And you know, how difficult is it for families to have that conversation?
CC: Have done some research on this. I actually am in the. Book myself and one. Search questions that I asked was. Related to accountability in terms of performance and there were of the I think 75 family and business leaders that I interviewed, I think there were maybe three or four that actually had formal performance reviews for family members, most, most of the people and this was, this was highly middle market, so it wasn't. The mom and pop shop. And it wasn't the multibillion dollar family business. It was middle market. The companies didn't even have discipline perform. For non family but if they. Only a small fraction actually included families, so it's not a common practice and. It's no wonder why, right? These are real. Conversations to have with family members because the rules of the game are different. Have permission as a family member to criticize a sibling or a cousin. It's just not part of the family. But as a business leader, that's what's expected. So again, you've got this. Of of rules that are in play in in how you communicate. So, uh, the the formula that I actually share with most of my clients is a formula that I've curated from a lot of research on difficult conversations. I'm a self admitted recovering conflict avoidance. Or fortunately I'm recovering because now I I'm actually quite comfortable engaging in constructive conflict. And all the all the work that I that I did in order to build that skill is something that I am grateful for. Because now I can share it with clients. And most of the content that I read and the people that I worked with walked me through some 8 to 10 step process and that was way. Number so I I narrowed it down to 5. I call it Playfair, Pfau IR, one of my clients said you. Way fair. And I was like, well, that's a great idea. So I call it play fair, but it's really. Starts with permission. You know, having the right conversation at the wrong time is definitely the wrong conversation if someone's on the way to their lunch hour and you'll say, hey, by the way, I need to give you some feedback that that's not the right time. So make sure both people are prepared to have the conversation. Next step is facts. Just state the facts. Interpretation of the facts. No assessment. Faxes, anyone would. And then the next step is the assessment phase. And this is where the real art comes in. And then the assessment phase, you, you talk about your view of those facts and it's really important that you take responsibility for your view. If, for example, I say when I heard you, when I saw you. I told myself that you. And that you didn't think I was, you know, doing a good job. And that's quite different from you were judging me and you don't think I'm doing a good job. That's an accusation. And that's, that's an interpretation. It's not a fact, right? It's your assessment of that fact. And so it's critically important that you own responsibility. Notice this. This is how I responded and. Thing that assessment. It is a fact. It is your. Is your truth and you remain. Other perspectives on a situation. This is critical because it decreases the defensiveness and the other person if the other person feels like they're being accused. In some way, they're it's human nature to instantly come up with defenses. If you own the assessment and you take responsibility for your interpretation of the fact, you can stay in an open conversation about the situation. Step Four is importance. I for importance. What make this what's make this? What makes this important and not just. To the family, important to the business, important to the other person. Take it above yourself and then the last part is our for resolve or request and this is a little bit more of the art again where you decide where to go. Usually it for a first time difficult conversation I might start with. Where to go with this? But I'd like to. I thought I'd bring it to your attention and see how you experienced this. Situation. And then at that point, shut your mouth, open your ears, open your eyes and just listen. Listen to understand. Don't listen to be understood. Stay really connected and when somebody said when the other person. The gigs you say hey I I, I'm. I'm noticing a reaction that I'm having. Can you please say more about that so I can understand it better? Stay in the listening mode as long as you can. And that to me, has been. Personally, the most effective formula for having difficult conversations. Whether it's family or non family, this is AU. Not a difficult communication process and and I think my my clients have shared with me that they have found it very helpful as well.
MP: Speaking of difficult conversations, I'm going to throw up another poll real quick. Again, these are Done anonymously and what this says is how much do you agree with the following statement? I am comfortable having difficult conversations. And I would tell you, yeah, I'll share mine. There are times when I agree and there's times when I strongly agree. So I'm probably somewhere in the middle. But you'll notice that I took out the middle, middle ground I was so that you had to make a decision. I go back and forth between the disagree and agree. There's times when. And other times when I just want to bury my head in the sand. Not have that confrontation, but like you Kathy, over the the years have gotten much, much better at that than than I used to. I strongly agree and agree and one disagrees. Thank you for sharing everybody. Really appreciate that. That brings us to, you know, talking about difficult conversations because we're right there, you know how to have difficult conversations propel the team to new accomplishments. So Mike, if you want, you know, kind of pick up on that a little bit and how do we, how do we have these difficult conversations, what are some other ways to do this? Team, you know, to do, to do better, faster, stronger, so to speak.
MG: Yeah, I think, and by the way, I love, I love Kathy's model. It's very similar to a. I've seen some eight step models and ten step. Man, that's too complicated to me. Steps and I'm good. Here the challenge with difficult conversations, especially when it's one around coaching someone, having that difficult conversation with someone who is just not not doing what they need to do. They're not a fit, they're not productive. We like to tell ourselves that we are holding back from having that. Because we don't want to make them feel bad. And I think that's a load of garbage. I think the reason we're not having that conversation is we don't wanna feel bad. And what we have to realize is that. Looks on our team in this like like Kathy like your process this goes for. It's not family businesses. You realize that there's someone on our team that's. They know it. They know it, and they. And by us not confronting it. Hurting the organization, but we're hurting them. I believe this may sound, you know, pie in the sky, but I believe everybody has the ability to be an A. Somewhere. And by us letting a beer or a CD player really struggle without us having that difficult conversation, I believe we're hurting them. Sometimes you have to hold that mirror up to people and. What you're seeing good, good, and bad, let them know what. So I think there are people that don't have that conversation because they don't want to make other people feel bad. I think you're hurting them by not having that conversation. There are times. In that conversation, because we have loyalty. To that person, well, again, family. Not family well. Joe's been around for 15 years and you know he's. Well, are we? Are we focused on being more loyal to that one person? Or should we be loyal to our whole organization who's now being held back by that one person? Really need to challenge yourself. By the way, you know, we're hurting. We're hurting our a players that are working their ***** off. We're hurting them by keeping those folks. Typical conversations, and I'm sure you guys have seen this. Players. Hard to perform like B players. Because they start to get fed up that you're letting the CD player. Found that that are dragging the company down.
CC: So you know you you really need to challenge yourself when that you're not having that difficult conversation. It's more about you. You're not. It's not because you're so nice. For you to have that difficult conversation, you know what the nice thing to do if you. Is to have that tough conversation. Right for that person, it's right for the company and. Love it. Thank you. To jump on something Mike said earlier, I've really liked what he said about how to how to build strong teams by aligning on the values. Firms that I have admired the most, of the ones who who really have thought carefully about what the values that they're going to live by, what they're going to walk away from because of values, what they're going to seek because of. Um, and so I've really. Enter that in Mike and then on top of that once. More clear and you really seek people who share values. And I also really admire the companies that go seek difference and this might be difference in in cognitive ability whether it's a Myers Briggs thing or a disc profile or my my preferred is Tetra map which is built on the. Is the the disc. Um, or any other level of diversity? City of perspective, diversity of experience, diversity of, you know, whether it's the standard EOC levels of diversity when you bring a lot of different views in the room and and you are a agreed and willing to adhere to the same set of values you can have really, really. Now, they're not always easy. You bring in all this difference. Creates a different kind of challenging communication. Because we tend to want people to behave like we do, or to see the world the way we do, and so inviting difference creates the conditions for conflict, and if you have the skills to engage in constructive conflict, you could actually have outstanding and superior outcomes as a result.
MP: The five dysfunctions of a team earlier and that goes back into that trust piece. Trust within the team To be in a safe space, to have those conversations, they never happen. So conflict can be great and you know. Things that my team started off with doing some disk pro. And you know, reading some Brené Brown and you know these other, you know the the five dysfunctions and and we've realized that it's OK to have conflict. And the conflict is, you know, healthy conflict is all about, you know, providing that space for differing opinions. Doesn't mean that, you know, we're, we're going to come to consensus and that everybody's going to be on the. We want to make sure that everybody has. Time to be heard to be thought, you know. Their opinions matter and and. Better in everything that you're doing. Now it makes you stronger, because if you're not open to those things and you're only doing it one way right, it's it gets pretty boring.
MG: Michael, I'll take what you said even further. I think not only is it. Their conflict let me make sure I get this double negative right. OK, not to have conflict if I've got if if I'm the CEO and I've got five people in the room that. By the time I have five too many. We need that conflict if they're, you know to be conflict is like 2/2 great ideas coming together and like, you know, theory of evolution, a third better idea comes out of So I think I think you need that conflict and as a. You should find ways to. That conflict. You know, as opposed to, you know, if everybody's always agreeing, you gotta throw something out there to get some people disagreeing and and constructively debating with each other. Not cursing and yelling and throwing things, which could happen in a family business, but, but that conflict is really critical. Even the man who loved that, thank you.
CC: Yeah, I'll jump in. Yeah, there's. About having conflict about an idea. Having a conflict that's personal? Yeah, that and that. That's where this this Playfair formula for difficult conversations can be really helpful, because that's when it starts to feel really personal, right? Having conflict about ideas can be. It can be Co creative, it can be exciting. It's when it starts to feel personal that it gets really hard. And I'll give you a couple of examples. There's a a family business that I'm working with right now and the it's a husband, wife and son team. Husband is the industry veteran and Highly conflict averse. Industry newcomer and. Um, active in conflict. And as we've been peeling the onion on what's really driving them, they've been married for 24 years. Pattern is very, very well worn. He doesn't feel heard. She yells louder. Her and she makes it more personal and she's at the point now where she just flat out emasculates her husband. On a regular basis, now his his story is, look, I'm going to get beat up one way or the other. Why do I even bother opening my mouth? I'm just going to get. And that's how deeply. Pained their relationship is so that's, you know, that that's a really extreme example of highly conflict avoidance and conflict seeking. By raising awareness of their patterns, they're starting to engage differently, and they're starting to to. Leading to some of the more healthy forms of communication. Give one other example of a family business where there was one. Working for their mother. Mother was completely checked out. This is kind of building on what Mike was talking about earlier. One brother was really checked out and so the family engaged in a difficult conversation and it turns out the brother who was really checked out was livid that his brother's wife was working in the business and he didn't. Wife was treating his brother and he's like. And have to work with my brother. I did not sign up for a 3 headed monster and he just. Checked out and once he got his truth out on the table and the family was able to be honest about what was really bothering him, he got fired up and is in it to win it again. So sometimes poor performance has nothing to do with their capabilities of their interests. It has to do with some other factor that's in play that could be contributing to their disengagement. Space to be able to have those conversations.
MP: And when it's especially within a family, a lot of times that space isn't happening because the patriarch or matriarch, you know, it's just jumping right on the way they do at home to say this is the way that it works around the kitchen table. And like you said before, in business it doesn't work well that way. Thank you, Dave Romano. Go ahead.
DR: Hello, Michael. Well, first and foremost, I jumped down the link. Didn't even see it was going to. Believable. I'm By Goldman a nice surprise to see your face. Long world. We just, you know, he's been on my podcast. We just were zooming last week. Right. So and then you know second I want to disagree with everything that's been said. I'm just kidding. I'm trying to trying to create a little conflict but I know that some here in Rochester have worked with the guy named John Engles who was a. Early and we go through a lot with him about you know, the whole conflict thing and being able to bring it in a in a in a very candid way but but in a tactful way. And I think that's the art, right, you know, because there's there's one extreme of the Mack truck where they bring it candidly but not tactically. Used behind the truck along the way right. And then there's the other extreme where you know he says I love the way he says it where you know the passive aggressive you know ten out of 10 you know someone in the office has you know body odor and instead of being able to tell the person they have body odor you you put some soap in her mailbox and. She has body odor, so she doesn't get the message when she gets the soap right. So that message not delivered right. So they're the two extremes seem to be somewhat prevailing right. And, and I think it's an art to get in the middle to be able to be really vulnerable. You're talking about Gray, brown and taking a deep breath and sometimes you just have to, you know. Well, I love you and that's why I'm gonna tell you this. You need to hear this from somebody who truly cares. Animate between the eyes and a candid yet loving and tactful way. And and I think that's that's when you can do that and and the message is delivered. The person gets it and still feels you know juiced up and inspired to be part of the team, I think. Going for in my opinion. So it's just I joined a little bit late, but it's been a really good conversation. Saying to David, I think it gets back full circle back to the emotional intelligence and it's where you know if that leader, that CEO, that owner, Patriarch matriarch whoever it is around the table if. Modeling the ability to have a safe space and get into conflict. It's not gonna happen. So it's really important that that's modeled at the top. I guess not gonna feel safe getting into it.
MP: Perfect. Kathy. We're at 12:59, so why don't we put together some parting words? The other thing is, when you finish up, if you could just tell people where to find you, I would appreciate that. And any other messages that you want to relay?
CC: Sure. I just want to acknowledge. Favorite boss was the guy that I worked for United Airlines who modeled this kind. Nation better than anyone else. So I just wanna a tip of the hat to him for helping me grow as a leader. At that time you can reach me at legacy onward.com. That's my website and I've got all my contact out info from. It's been a pleasure Michael being on your on your show. So thank you so much for including me. Love Kevin.
MP: Yeah Michael then tell them how they can reach you and where, where to find your book. Yeah.
MG: So quick quick parting word first is, is I truly believe as as the leadership team goes so goes the rest of the organization. Customer service it may not be a customer service issue. You gotta problem in sales may not be a sales issue. Leadership team as a leadership team goes, so goes the organization. The way you can find me is my new book is available on Amazon. It's called Breakthrough leadership team. I have another book called Performance Breakthrough that's also out there. More information on the book. You can go to breakthrough leadership team.com For more information. Ismike-goldman.com.
MP: Well, I wanted to say thank you to everybody for joining us. I'm Michael Palumbos and we're family, wealth and legacy in Rochester, NY and if any of these discussions have stirred something for you, feel free to reach out to us. Take care everyone.
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