Broker Check


Episode 10: Strong Families Survive Tough Times with Shawn Barberis & Tom Rogerson


EPISODE 6: TRANSCRIPT

Michael Palumbos: Welcome everybody to the family biz show. My name is Michael Palumbos. I'll be your host today from family wealth and legacy. We are excited to have two people that I've thankfully spent some time speaking with and had met personally over through the years through the purposeful planning Institute. And we're joined by Tom Rogerson who has very illustrious career Elena asked you to talk about that just a little bit in a second time and tell us about your journey and Shawn. I just did that thing. Sean Barbaris, I didn't get the name just, I apologize. Shawn, I just wanted to say something else that just popped into my head wrong.

Shawn has, you know, again, another great career and has done some really unique things with some software to help families out. Amongst many other things. So I, you know, ask you both to just talk about your journey. How did you get here, you know, at this point, talking with family businesses and families of wealth. You know, how did that start for you. So Sean, why don't you kick us off and tell us about yourself a little bit

Shawn Barberis: Sure. So how did I start working with families. Uh, well, it was during law school. I got a job down at a downtown law firm where I was doing a state and business planning for a lot of successful business owners obviously as a clerk. I'm still in law school. So I really got exposed to all kinds of advanced planning. Tactics and instruments during law school. So that was about 1997 that I started doing that and I started to really work in that industry. And then when my wife and I graduated law school, we passed the bar in 2000 I actually started my own law firm.

And which I carried on much of the same work I drafted documents crowd scratch trusts you know dynasty trust Aesop's, all that kind of fun stuff, buy. Sell agreements executive comp

 

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Shawn Barberis: And then folks can bring me their financial statements or life insurance, and I was not qualified or license to advise on

 

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Shawn Barberis: Financial and securities and insurance and so forth. So I got licensed and had a ton of fun and as a top 1% advisor for a number of years.

Shawn Barberis: Started a financial services company from scratch with two partners that was just the three of us we grew it into 76 registered reps over 220 brokers around the country.

 And then I left, I realized there was a hole in the middle of the professional planning donut through personal experience of working now with hundreds of high net worth and ultra high net worth families.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And I wanted to hire researchers at premier planning group at our financial services firms and my two partners kind of shied away think it was a little

 

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Shawn Barberis: Little too time intensive a little too expensive. So I respectfully sold my third in the business and I started my current company.

 

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Shawn Barberis: More than money 360 and we hired researchers that came back to us and highlighted the issues. Why wealth transfers fail.

Shawn Barberis: And then we surveyed the market. It was very consultative market very time intensive market, a market that required people to be in the same place a lot and I thought that wasn't completely congruent to the busy geographically dispersed lifestyle.

Shawn Barberis: So we did. So we built our first version of the technology and Q4 of 2007 and right now we're launching our fifth version in September and it's been no holds barred full steam ahead. Ever since 2007 so we're excited. That's a little bit about my history at this point. And I'll turn it back over to you. Thank you.

Michael Palumbos: Thanks, appreciate it. Tom, take a second. Introduce yourself.


Tom Rogerson: Sure, yeah. Tom Rogerson and my background really started with a family history. My on my father side. My great grandfather was a very successful business leader in Boston, became the president of Boston safe deposit and trust company grew to be the largest financial institution in the northeast by pretty much any measure and started a foundation in Boston that right now has a little bit more than a billion dollars in it. So he was doing pretty well even by today's standards.

 

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Tom Rogerson: his estate plan was designed to get the bulk of the money down to the family, um, as great grandson, and it's gone.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Not because of bad investing or bad planning. We had phenomenal planning and phenomenal and he owned an investment management company. I mean, you can't

 

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Tom Rogerson: And it's gone because of how the family operated. I'm not saying anything bad about the family when they said that wonderful loving great family but

 

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Tom Rogerson: We didn't know what to do differently and we fell into the trap that most families fall into. So I started when I first became got out of college.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I started in the financial services industry and worked at Merrill Lynch and Kidder Peabody

 

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Tom Rogerson: But I was helping more in the planning side became the National Director of a state tax planning for a couple of Wall Street firms.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And wealth management firms, but going back about 30 years ago I started looking at the research of why families were failing.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And had almost nothing to do with the quality of the investment management had an almost nothing to the quality of the estate planning it and almost everything to do with where they preparing the family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so I started adding what I would now call family governance to what I was doing back then.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And I would talk about a generations hippie trust. But how do you introduce the family and people were much more

 

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Tom Rogerson: Interested in the, how do you introduce these things, the family than they were about the planning structures themselves.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So that became my focus and I now have had a chance to run family meetings for over 260 families now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: In helping them get started in this space. And I've done surveys of an additional over 200 families. On top of that, and now I just share that research and information with families and my wife and I do it together. But we do it together in a consultative approach.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. Well, thank you both for taking the time. And joining us

 

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Michael Palumbos: We spent a little bit of time together. The three of us check prepping the you know what what do we want to talk about what excites us and

 

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Michael Palumbos: In between the three of us and you know Tom throughout the strong family survived tough times the tough times are upon us. How's your family. And I think that's just a powerful you know question and a powerful metaphor for what is going on right now and you know

 

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Michael Palumbos: The, the first point that we, you know, we talked about was the fact that, you know, what are you know what are the things that strong family strong families do differently.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Than families that don't in the you know the strong families major in the majors.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so I guess let's start there. What are the majors, Tom, why don't you kick us off on on that and then Sean and I will, you know, bounce back and forth with you a little bit on you know where that takes us

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sure. Well, yeah, that the title. First of all, comes from. I've been doing this for quite a while. And we've gone through a number of issues before

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so I use that title to indicate the families and strong families do survive through tough times. I mean, in the surveys of the 200 plus families that we've worked with

 

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Tom Rogerson: Those families, almost all of them have survived through over 100 years of difficult times.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And it by definition, that means they've gone through the epidemic that we had before the Spanish flu, they they've lived through World Wars. They've lived through the depression, they've

 

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Tom Rogerson: Somehow these families got through some very difficult times. And it's very few that did but what were they doing differently. And I think the most interesting thing I found more recently is when

 

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Tom Rogerson: Or at least the reception we've gotten from explaining to people how it is that this happens.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And most wealth in this country is actually first generation wealth and those people often grew up with a middle class or maybe blue collar working class background or lower middle class background.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the way I would describe it, they grew up in a tremendous environment of interdependence. They had to work together when Johnny wanted to borrow the car and Friday night, everyone got involved in conversation because it's the car.

 

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Tom Rogerson: When Jill wants to go to college. Everyone gets involved because if she goes to college, our lives are all going to change.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they learned interdependence, they often shared a bathroom in the morning, they often had summer jobs and shared, you know, the environment at home, they learned

 

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Tom Rogerson: They didn't like it, but they knew about each other, they

 

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Tom Rogerson: To know, and to be known as a very foundational human characteristic and they didn't know each other better. Well, if somebody in that family succeeds. They want to get away from all that hardship.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And if they have financial success they want to use that money and very often do to build independence in their family, instead of interdependence.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To give their children, their own bedroom their own bathroom private school summer camp.

 

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Tom Rogerson: fewer opportunities to interact, they love each other, but they actually don't know each other as well their dinner table conversations are more social. How's your golf game. How's your tennis game.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So what we're basically doing when we get together with families is and we tell them this, and it's our mission statement agenda leg.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Our mission is to introduce and reintroduce the family to itself repeatedly with metrics to measure results and success.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that's really the crux is that's the major the major is they don't know each other as well as they could.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And to change culture changing it from the inside out is very difficult. They often need somebody to help them start the process of changing culture, see the vision and then help them start the roadmap to get there. So that's a little how we do it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. You know, it's funny when you when you're talking about that I'm

 

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Michael Palumbos: Working with a family right now that it's they're very, you know, it's the transition from generation to generation three, which is where a lot of these things start to show themselves, right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And what they, you know, we're setting up a family meeting and the families getting together for a weekend and, you know, we're just doing three a three hour session.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And, you know, they're like, we know how to do a picnic. We know how to do a family reunion. What do you guys getting in the middle of this for

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so one of the things that you know we had to explain to all members of the family is why

 

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Michael Palumbos: And it's, you know, you know how to do all of the the fun stuff. But it's that getting to know each other piece. There are people that don't know each other because people have married into the family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We don't know where their family came from. We don't know what their background is, and, you know, it's time to reintroduce each other, ourselves, I'd love what you're saying. I think that's just a great way of saying it, Tom.

 

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Michael Palumbos: John so when you're thinking about these things and you know

 

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Michael Palumbos: The, the Major on the majors and the the tough times are upon us. And you know, I, one of the things I love about both you guys is that you both did some, you know, spend time doing research and studying these things. What did

 

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Michael Palumbos: What came out of the things that you're you know that you've looked at through the years.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Now, so back in, oh seven when we hired our initial researchers, we identified the six reasons why wealth transfers fail and

 

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Shawn Barberis: As, as Tom mentioned, none of them have to do with the finances. So the number one issue that we identified

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is communication and the lack thereof. So we break it down in our digital system and our technology we literally break it down step by step.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We start with what is meaningful communication define what that means. Well, it's open. It's honest It's respectful you're listening right so let's establish the ground rules of what meaningful communication is

 

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Shawn Barberis: And then we take the family through a number of our

 

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Shawn Barberis: Exercises in our technology to identify their social styles identify how they prefer to communicate how the others in your family prefer to communicate.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And identify those styles and then learn what the positives and negatives of each style.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is and how you can adapt your communication to reduce conflict, increase the level of meaningful communication.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So number one would be communication that's that's that's majoring in the majors. That is the lifeblood of successful wealth transfer in the hundreds of families that we've consulted.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That is where we start and they also my clients will get tired of me here saying that communication is a process, not an event, something that you need to continually work on

 

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Shawn Barberis: So every single family meeting that we do in between and our exercises. We're always focusing on communication, but some of the other things are shared vision.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, a lot of our research indicated the next generation feel dictated to they wanted to have a voice in what the vision of the family was

 

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Shawn Barberis: And so we all know that we don't react very well when we're dictated to. But when we engage those and they feel that they have a voice. So that's one thing we do, we get the family having a conversation

 

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Shawn Barberis: We spark that meaningful dialogue. After creating the focus on communication. Now what are we going to communicate well let's communicate together about creating the shared vision because I'd say engage in next generation.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But specifically for from family businesses which we consult a lot with we take an

 

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Shawn Barberis: Approach of providing system and process, not only through our technology, but taking an approach of beginning with the end in mind.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Working inside out. What is the impact we want the family business to have on the family. And once we decide that we can then have more clarity about how to properly manage the business assets so

 

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Shawn Barberis: As far as, as far as, you know, majoring in the majors, I would say communication shared vision working inside out and certainly having system process and making it consistent getting everybody into a rhythm.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, what we do is we spend 30 minutes a month with each one of our clients and they know every, every month. They're spending 30 minutes with one of our 37 advisors to be able to move that conversation along.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that touching them every month really creates a Rolling Thunder of momentum. And then you have the family medium which is just an enormous explosion of of communication.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But that's where we start. That's how we major in the majors is focusing on that communication vision and system and process.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great. You know, you talk about the big begin with the end in mind and working, what did you say from the inside.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Outside outside

 

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It's

 

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Shawn Barberis: working, it's working inside. I do have to give credit the Libra, Libra. Our from powered wealth is a friend of mine. I think that's his

 

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Michael Palumbos: That's his chair. I didn't know leave from

 

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Shawn Barberis: Coach Yeah that yeah I that's how I met Lee was through Strategic Coach in Chicago, you know, so, so that's that's a big part of how we approach it.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And obviously we have a tremendous focus on governance, we have an entire project dedicated to governance.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that element also is something that I think the the successful families. Look at how are we going to resolve disputes, how are we going to make decisions. Let's do it proactively not reactive Lee before we have

 

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Shawn Barberis: emotional damage and we need to bring in Tom Roger son's wife to help us out. So yeah, for sure. That's a big part of how we approach it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Wonderful.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Now, giving the example of how some of this can come together in a family. We had a chance to do some things with the green family of Hobby Lobby fame and

 

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Tom Rogerson: When we met with them over a three day period of time and Oklahoma City. We met with March, the first day, the sun, one of the sons

 

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Tom Rogerson: And Mark was talking about the fact that they have a family meeting every month and everybody comes and

 

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Tom Rogerson: They take it really seriously and they have a celebration of everybody had a birthday that month. And they, but I don't mean just birthday cake and a hat and everything.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They, they really acknowledge each other and they talked about what do i respect about you and like about you and you know, really, they really spend time and they do some philanthropy during that monthly meeting and all

 

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Tom Rogerson: And it just sounded the team building activities that they do are really profound and so the next day I was talking to David green. And David said, you know, we've only had three family meetings in the history of my family business.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I said, David to admit it yesterday. Mark said, you have a family meeting every month. He said, Oh yeah, he's talking about the meetings where we focus on building strong family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I'm talking about the meetings where we talked about money in the business.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They only talked about money in the business three times and I can tell you what those were later but that but there really a powerful

 

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Tom Rogerson: But he said the three meetings where we focused on the business in the money and what we had to do trend, you know, transformative things we had to do in the business those went well because of the monthly meetings.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The third day, I had a chance to meet with one of the granddaughters and her new husband she married a little bit more than six months and her new husband was saying.

 

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Tom Rogerson: This family is incredible. I can't believe how connected. I already feel

 

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Tom Rogerson: Months before I got married, they were inviting me to their family meeting and they know me well I know them well I'm I feel really connected

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then he said something that I think is one of the best lines. I've ever heard. He said in those meetings we build the bridge of trust and grace so we can drive the truck of truth over it.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that to me is really the talk about a foundational issue communication is really important. But the biggest reason that family say they fail is due to lack of trust around group decision making.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so how do you build trust and they do it very intentionally on a monthly meeting basis and and that it's those kinds of activities. We're trying to bring in. How do you build trust.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Because the natural tendency is for people to triangulate if I've got a problem with my brother, rather than go to my brother, I'd go to my wife.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And talk to her about what she thinks. Now I get support. Now I've got a Union before I had a belief. Now I'm right because she agrees.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so I've just caused a problem with my wife's relationship with my brother, and she doesn't even talk to him about these things.

 

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Tom Rogerson: How do we help families get around that. And that's what my wife and I, when we get together with families. We really need to. That is a major

 

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Tom Rogerson: That when we get together feminine. We've got to focus on how do we get them being able and willing to speak truth to each other and get into a place of safety, where they can do that. So then they they can communicate. Yeah.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And that makes so much sense. And when you think about you know the the three circle model that will you know that came up, years ago, you know, the family, the business and ownership.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Right. Um, and it gets so complicated. The reason why it gets so complicated. Is that communication and trust when we just have the business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I can go home and I don't have to worry about those people that I work with. And, you know, we can you know the really great businesses they get really good at communication. Right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And we know that from studies over and over again. But within the family we have those dynamics that go back to the time when

 

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Michael Palumbos: Remember when you know you stole my Barbie doll and smashed it up and you know all of the things that have happened for four years that make it so much more difficult to

 

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Michael Palumbos: Kind of, you know, peel back the onion and get to the truth, as you said, you know, I love that analogy of, we need to build what did say that again, build the bridge of

 

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Tom Rogerson: Grace and trust so we can drive the truck of truth over it and I just love that that is a and I've got so many families focusing and doing exactly that same thing

 

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Michael Palumbos: Phenomenal. Um, so once again. So let's just kind of summarize these things if you had to go through

 

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Michael Palumbos: Sean, you know, there's the majors. You said there were six things that everybody should be focusing on. Let's hit those six things from your perspective and then Tom if there's anything that you want to add to those that would be helpful helpful.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Well, we identified six reasons why well by wealth transfers fail.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That's what I was

 

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Shawn Barberis: Yeah, so, gosh, let me go through them all. Lack of meaningful communication lack of transparency, like trust lack of a shared vision.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Lack of system of process and lack of governance are the six reasons why wealth transfers fail and

 

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Shawn Barberis: That's why we created our technology and we created projects around each one of them. One is values where we have five levels folks on values ones legacy ones governance ones gratitude, which is our philanthropic

 

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Shawn Barberis: Which is our philanthropic project. So we built those around those pillars as to why wealth transfers fail so we can mitigate that risk for families as best we can.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it, Tom.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Man at

 

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Shawn Barberis: The same time, though, and I'd say,

 

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Shawn Barberis: I think it's critically important, not only help the mitigate the reasons why wealth transfers fail but fit that busy socially distance geographically dispersed lifestyle. We have found lots of ways in our 13 years to make family meetings, more efficient, more impactful.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And more purposeful, as we've gone through the years and we continue to fine tune and use those. But moving everybody towards that family meeting, which really is that wonderful blaster communication that you referenced earlier.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Perfect.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Tom, anything to add to the majors.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Well, I think one of the big majors that many of the entrepreneurs are particularly interested in is that

 

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Tom Rogerson: Is the notion that entrepreneurs recognize they grew up in an entrepreneurial incubator that interdependent environment that I was describing of a working class background is an incubator for entrepreneurship.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that's a culture that's quite different, because those very same people that grew up in an entrepreneurial incubator raised their children in an entrepreneurial kills zone.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they don't know what they do. They don't know differently. And so to help them understand how to reintroduce an entrepreneurial incubator mentality an entrepreneur, we call it having an a family in this culture.

 

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Tom Rogerson: linked to an entrepreneurial mindset. And what would that look like because that is a very different dynamic.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The I'm doing I'm creating a teaching a course at Gordon college on family governance this very topic.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But that's a major portion of the course is, how do you create an entrepreneurial environment and decision making process at home.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Because as we said earlier, the, the crux of the issue. The number one biggest reason that famous fails due to lack of trust or on group decision making.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And yet, if we build an independent family that is separates and and doesn't know each other as well as they could.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Those are the very same people that are theoretically going to take over the family business when mom and dad are gone, but they have no experience at working together.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So we're trying to reintroduce it to me. It's that families often are focusing on avoiding conflict.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they avoid, avoid, avoid until it explodes in their face. Well, how do you set an actual process of practicing and managing conflict.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So when something a more significant consequence comes to bear you can handle it. And that's exactly what the Greens are doing on those monthly meetings. They're creating the bridge of trust.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So when they have the major crises, they actually can communicate in a trusting honest way and get to that place of transparency. So, but they are a very entrepreneurial mentality in their family and that's a culture most famous don't know how to do.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Got it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: From there, you know, we've hit on them several times, we talk talking about the family meetings.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Let's, let's dive dive into family meetings, a little bit more

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, why are these Why are family meetings in necessity and what are the what are the aspects, what are the what are the right tools, what are the right things that have to be done in order to conduct a meaningful family meeting, Tom, why don't you kick that off, if you don't mind.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sure, yeah. Um, basically in the surveys, we've done in the studies we've looked at as well.

 

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Tom Rogerson: families that are having family meetings succeed and families that are not having family meetings, don't. I mean, if you want to fail. Don't have family meetings.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And a family meeting is not where you talk about the money. It's where you focus on building that sense of who we are as a family, so

 

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Tom Rogerson: You know, that's like the greens. I love that they had three family meetings really talked about the money and they a monthly ones for years that they focus on the family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But what we created was a six step process to help me get started and family meetings.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I for years I had people who would come to the presentations. I was doing and they would take copious notes, these, you know, husbands and wives.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then write down all these ideas and they come up and clarify them. Make sure they're really set

 

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Tom Rogerson: And and and I later on. I figured out what they're what they're doing. They're taking all these notes to go home and implement these things to their family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Well, they may have the right message, but they're the wrong messenger

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so what we came to realize is, they often need somebody else to come in and help them get started.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So we created what we call the six step process to healthy family governance and the the six steps of what we take a family through in the family meeting process.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Step one. Actually happens before the meeting we do an assessment of everybody in the family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: We give them a series of statements that they read like our family makes decisions really effectively where everybody feels heard and seen

 

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Tom Rogerson: Okay. On one side of the page. How important is that that statement for your family to accomplish and and the other side of the page, how well you're doing it right now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They send all those to us. We tabulate them and then we have a chance when we come to the family meeting to share with them.

 

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Tom Rogerson: By your own admission, here's where the biggest gaps are that you as a family. Say you want to work on these are really important items that you're not doing as effective jobs, you'd like

 

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Tom Rogerson: So let's focus on those because of the ones relevant to you.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So that's step one. The assessment. Step two is when we get to the family meeting the education process. They need to understand why our families failing as a group. So there's a level playing field.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And during that education process we share them. The results of the assessment third step is we do think that they need a leadership style.

 

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Tom Rogerson: assessment of how they approach a topic that communication issue that Sean was talking about.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I approached the world differently. I see it differently. And I say what I saw differently. And very often what you disagree with about me is not what we're arguing about it's how we're arguing about it, that was causing the disagreement.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So we take them through an assessment so they can learn how to do that differently. And then we take them through a style shifting exercise.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The fourth step is a values exercise. What do we believe in what do I believe in and where the shared values attributes.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To come up with, and sometimes a shared value by most people is divisive to the rest. Well, how do you make, how do you handle that. What do you do with that.

 

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Tom Rogerson: All of this leads to them having a starting come up with as a group action steps, what can we do about it.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the final step is then, how do we put a plan around this where the estate plan actually takes into account the purpose of the family as articulated and created by the family meeting process.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the last piece of that was number of years ago.

 

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Tom Rogerson: An attorney name Marvin bloom and I thought you know one thing we're seeing and families that are succeeding. They're not only doing family meetings. They're endowing the process.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And we created a trust structure called a fast family advancement sustainability trust and we will not read an article in the trust in the States magazine.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Number of years ago, three years ago about this and it's really a trust to endow the family meeting process because the ideas if we're doing family meetings and they're going really well.

 

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Tom Rogerson: When mom and dad are gone. The family will keep doing it wasn't happening because there if we went from one couple of organizing and paying

 

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Tom Rogerson: For it for two, three couples maybe now with three kids organizing and they weren't doing it. They were saying, I got other things to do. I'm busy.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But if it was endowed they were highly likely to keep doing it because if one of them couldn't do it this year. The other two are saying, hey, we'll miss you. But we're spending your share on this year's meeting.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And guess what, to be there. The next year, all three. And so endowing the meeting turned out to be really important as well.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But that's what we think a family meeting process should look like. Our role is to work away out of a job. We want them to pick up the ball and run with it, but we find that usually takes two or three meetings before they're ready to do to do that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. You know, it's I'll share with you pull up the Columbus family does belong. This family vacation.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And we've been doing it now for 20 years and we have siblings. We were all over the country and we would get together and so the cousins could meet, you know, spend time together as we were doing things

 

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Michael Palumbos: When I talked about the that next level of communication. My father was like, No, no, this is, this is just vacation. This is, you know, we're not adding any of that fluffy stuff in, Mike.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And

 

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Michael Palumbos: But on the other hand, he did in Del PF V, as we call it, Columbus family vacation, so that will be endowed for many, many generations.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so one of the conversations I had with the family was if we don't learn to communicate even though the money's there. Do you think that will continue to do a good job of deciding how to make these things happen.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so this year, we have a specialist coming in for PSP to talk about disk profiles and in communication systems and you know how that works within our family so

 

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Michael Palumbos: We're taking the one out of, out of your page and appreciate that, Sean, you, you know, have a your system is all designed for

 

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Michael Palumbos: Family family meetings. Why don't you walk us through you know you again, you have the six different pieces to that. Tell us some more about that how that works to make those family meetings, you know, meaningful and much easier to conduct, you know, to conduct.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Yeah and you know I Tom and I are old friends. We've had this conversation and I respectfully disagree with a little bit of his business model, a lot of that work assessments explaining why we're together.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We do ahead of time so so we noticed a few things I interviewed Roy Williams back in 2007 God rest his soul. And I talked to him about some of the things that he found when we identified the reasons why wealth transfers fail and family meetings like justice Tom absolutely correctly.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Alluded to are the best way to help mitigate wealth transfer failure in attack those six reasons.

 

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Shawn Barberis: I interviewed ROI for some time and asked him, you know, what are some of the things that you'd like to sing better happened with with family meetings and he highlighted.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That much of the next generation comes in very guarded not understanding exactly what they're going to be doing during that time.

 

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Shawn Barberis: They don't really feel like they've had a lot of input. He was him. And I had a very extended conversation over course of several, several

 

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Shawn Barberis: Months as to how we can get the next generation more engaged right out of the gate. So what we've done.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Actually is we before we even engage with a family we complete our digital assessment and it's 40 questions. It tells us where they're where they're strong

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we've just we know exactly what their baseline is if they even have a need for are more than money 316 platform. So we start with that before we even engage with them.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we complete that assessment and then they say, yep. Let's go. So the first thing we do then is we get the entire family together on a zoom meeting again. We were very attracted to that busy geographically dispersed family. So we do a lot through

 

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Shawn Barberis: online meetings and we have since 2012

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we get around the zoom meeting. We have a presentation. We do we call more than money. The what the why the how, what the heck is it, why the heck should I care and how and how are we going to do this.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we get the family on the same page from the very beginning as to why they're even embarking

 

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Shawn Barberis: On this journey on this conversation. What the heck is it, why is it important, well, you lose all your money but family unit these kind of break

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, the, the intangible assets of the founders going to be gone. And then how are we going to do it. Well, we're going to invest 30 minutes a month, which is what we immediately go into

 

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Shawn Barberis: After that presentation and depending on which of our projects were on we spend 30 minutes we identify social side we identify the core values we identify the shared core values.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We set a three year vision and we do all of this prior to walking into the family meeting. The other thing that we do that that

 

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Shawn Barberis: I think really just lowers the guard a lot is after our 430 minute consultation in one of our projects we propose a

 

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Shawn Barberis: An agenda for the family meeting and we show it. The little Johnny we show with the Little Susie, we get his or we get all their input we shot the mom and dad grandma, grandpa whoever's whoever's invited to the family meeting.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Gets equal input as to what's on that agenda so that that gets buying that gets engaged.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So then we walk into the family meeting. We've done all the assessments. We've done all the pre work. And now we have an agenda where we can sit down, eyes up and communicate with one another in the eye.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And and really have an impactful family meeting. So we do a lot of pre work really we take a very practical approach if you have an important meeting, whether it's a work.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Church family you prepare for it. And that's what our technology allows us to do. And that's a big

 

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Shawn Barberis: Big way that we're a little bit different. We completely concur that the family meeting is essential to multi generational success, but we just prepare for it a little bit different way and we try to keep our family meetings.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Shorter and far more impactful four or five, maybe six hours. Max and leave with a lot of clarity and momentum as we jump into the as we jump into the next project.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great, you know, and that's one of the nice things about the world that we live in is, you know, we can have different ways of doing things and and still be effective. And what we're doing. I love

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know I Sean I

 

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Michael Palumbos: I love your software.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thank you. And as we've talked about it before I have not had a the the ability to tap into it and I think I just found a way that that might might happen. I think for some families.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That is going to be super powerful to deal with the flip side of that, though, is I i do you know I found some families that unless you sit them down and bring them together and make these things happen.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Without you know they're they're not going to show up for the 30 minute meetings that to invest those things they need that that big reason to all be there.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I think Tom's you know method of doing that brings a lot of those families together. I've got one in my head that I'm just thinking about

 

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Michael Palumbos: If I asked them to show up for a 30 minute meeting once a month. I'm going to get about 50% by in nobody's going to do the work and I really need them to you know to do things differently.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Yeah, we

 

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Shawn Barberis: We, we don't have that problem at all, because we set the expectation that initial zoom meeting where we go through the what the, why the hell.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That this is what we need from you and I will say I need approximately eight hours from you over six months if investing eight hours over six months, including the family meeting.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is too much time for you to invest back into family unity, creating a shared vision, essentially, then you know this isn't for you.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But if you can spare eight hours over six months then then we're going to make a tremendous amount of progress family meeting July 2

 

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Shawn Barberis: With a family that engage with us, June 26 then we had a meeting yesterday to finalize the agenda.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And we look back over the year and and they can't believe the agenda me, excuse me, the progress. They've made in a year because we take this baby step approach. You take a take 1000 baby steps you look over your shoulder, and you've walked a mile.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's a big part of how we do it. So we have tremendous engagement on those 30 minute consultations, because it's also convenient. I have the next generation that will do it if they're walking down the street Manhattan headed to a meeting.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, my rule is, I don't care what you're doing as long as, as long as you're closed and you give me

 

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Shawn Barberis: Focus, a month. That's, that's all I care about. Or keep your camera off either way.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But no, we have tremendous engagement on the 30 minute consultation, because I think once families go through our process, they realize how much how impactful.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That time is when we get to the family meeting we really hit the ground running with with guards down and and communication up so yeah we we have, we have a lot of engagement on on those at this point.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great Man Maybe it's, you know, as we all say we come to everything that we do with our own biases. So maybe it's just

 

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Michael Palumbos: My biases in

 

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Michael Palumbos: Terms of looking at the family and how I think that they learn

 

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Michael Palumbos: Tom is that

 

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Michael Palumbos: Your family now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Yeah you you prompted this you would mention the vacation thing because we floated number of ideas that a family meeting because we want the next generation to buy into the idea

 

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Tom Rogerson: But one of the top ideas that the next generation often buy into that they want and then they own it. But was this idea of a family vacation and we started this years ago with our family we gave our children a budget and and we let them.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Plan a vacation and after they planned it they would then invite us. My wife and me to go in the vacation that they planned.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And you know, I don't want to let them control my retirement account. And if I own the business. I don't want them jumping into running a business yet. But what's the worst thing that they could do if they plan a vacation. And this last year. This is the vacation. They planned.

 

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Tom Rogerson: On budget and we went to Costa Rica and on this is Christmas day we're taking surplus and they lined the whole thing up and they invited us to go

 

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Tom Rogerson: Really funny was they got round trip tickets from Boston to Costa Rica for $200 per person.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Wow. The friend from a close town in hang them that they spent more than our family spend on our entire family per person to get them to down to Costa Rica.

 

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Tom Rogerson: For the same week that we were there. So they did. They learned a ton. But they've done this over time they've learned a ton about each other and how to do things.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the reason this often comes across better floated by an outsider. I'll give you an example in the philanthropic area. I was going to do a family meeting for a family and

 

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Tom Rogerson: I was talking to parents ahead of time. And I asked them, Is there an amount of money, you'd like them to give to charity or you'd be willing to let them give to charity.

 

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Tom Rogerson: That I could talk about. And they said, yeah, we talked, we thought about them way here. We want them to give away about $30,000 a year out of our foundation

 

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Tom Rogerson: And I said, great, we just let me float that number at the meeting. And they said, Oh, no, no, no, no, we thought about that too. We, we actually you're gonna love this, Tom. They said,

 

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Tom Rogerson: We're going to put that we're going to engrave that number in wood and we're going to wrap it up in a box and put a ribbon over it. We're going to give it to them as our gift. I mean, there were gonna tissues out everyone's gonna be, it's gonna be really powerful.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So I talked to them about and they finally said, wow, you're right. That would be a bad idea. Wouldn't. And I said, Yeah. I think that'd be a bad idea and and because what

 

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Michael Palumbos: Why is that a bad idea.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Because what they recognize if they wrap that number up and put it in a box, who chose the number

 

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Tom Rogerson: Who chose the number

 

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Tom Rogerson: Yeah, really.

 

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Tom Rogerson: What to do if I get to float the number and say, what about your family. What if your parents had I don't know $30,000 when you give to charity.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Could you anything meaningful that and watch the children sit up and look at the parents like hey, would you be willing

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that the parents were able to sit back and say, Hey, guys. It's a lot of money. We'd love to but could do anything meaningful.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To watch the children, trying to convince the parents that they ought to invest this $30,000 same number, trying to get to. But

 

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Tom Rogerson: How we get them where they want to go. We think is as important as where we're trying to get them and so

 

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Tom Rogerson: That's where an outsider can do these things. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes, but how these ideas are we want the children. We call it be, oh he buy in.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To ownership to empowerment. If we can float the ideas and they choose it. They own it. If they own it. They're empowered by it and ultimately

 

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Tom Rogerson: We're, we're trying to get families. The reason we call this whole title strong families survive tough times.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To to feel known and to know others and feel connected and a sense of place and purpose creates a much higher sense of

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sense of resilience in people no matter what the struggles are they faced with. They can get through them.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And to hear the history of the family to know what our families gotten through before. How did grandma and grandpa get through the depression. How do they get to the World Wars. How do they get to the loss of a child.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To have a family that knows those things and and

 

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Tom Rogerson: Allows them to individually be more resilient today and more resilient as a family, and it's those activities. So this looks like a lot of fun in the background, but in reality.

 

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Tom Rogerson: It's what makes the difference and the families that have grown independent, to the point of estrangement haven't built the interdependence that we're trying to reintroduce the family in this process. We take families through

 

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Michael Palumbos: Lava. Thank you, Sean, you just

 

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Michael Palumbos: An example or, you know, a story without, you know, names or families or whatnot, but could you just, you know, kind of guide us through you know maybe somebody some of the examples of things that you've done with families and you know how the what the reactions were

 

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Shawn Barberis: That specificity. Specifically, give me a little bit what you see

 

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Michael Palumbos: I guess that would be

 

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Michael Palumbos: A success story using the software. What are some of the things that you saw coming you know as families were building upon these things. Well, what are some of your favorite stories to share with other other families.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Well, I think one of the biggest things is a lot of families want to have this conversation. They don't know how to have this conversation just as Tom alluded to. And if you look at the data and research and

 

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Shawn Barberis: Data and research that we've done. They're looking for someone from the outside to provide that process structure and that spark.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's really, that's really what we do, through our technology and not and not only through and obviously through our family meetings is provide that system process in Spark.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, we have families that are blended that are recently blended that hired us to kind of come together as one family we, you know, so

 

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Shawn Barberis: The 28 families. We have now I think a good eight or nine of them are blended a large number of them are family businesses, trying to figure out exactly how to

 

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Shawn Barberis: liquidate the family business, they realize Little Johnny was not interested in the business, but maybe a little Susie was and that really

 

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Shawn Barberis: Surprised surprised them one company and specifically, they, they were really surprised and and you know, part of this is that this can be a self realization and also a family realization process.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Just like they realized the data was more interested in the family business, and the sun that happens almost with every single family we engage in they learned something about a family member that they didn't know

 

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Shawn Barberis: So there's lots of success stories from elevating communication. We also are we also coined the term active gratitude. We think stroke in a check is incredibly generous. But what's in the best interest of your family multi generationally

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is actively participating and philanthropic events together, getting your hands dirty. I have one family who

 

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Shawn Barberis: One of their one element of their shirts philanthropic vision is animals, and there was a five K run or whatever it was, and they volunteered to end up water bottles to the ranch.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And they just got real silly, you know, say Fido, you know, the first somebody run about this is regard feel they just, they still talk about this day they did it seven years ago.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And they still joke about it, but that's a wonderful way to teach of wealth as a social responsibility to teach gratitude over entitlement.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And also decrease shared experiences of value and strengthen that family unity. So we have we have lots of success, success stories is the

 

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Shawn Barberis: Biggest success stories we have 100% client retention rate since 2012 So folks, keep coming back. We're doing something right.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But, but, but for each family. It's different. What that success is because each have different goals each have different different visions. So we've seen that we've seen those successes manifest in a number of different ways over our years of working with families.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. Yeah, I don't think you can go much further than 100%

 

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Shawn Barberis: We're proud of that for sure we're proud for you. Sure.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. We have something you said, kind of, you know, pairs off of, you know, the creating that that mindset that the the family entrepreneurial mindset that

 

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Michael Palumbos: I do you know I would. I do believe that that makes such a big difference. Tom when you you know you give us that picture of the, you know, one generation is, you know, the they're scrapping their way to the top. And we want to make it easier for the next generation.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And what you're actually doing is, you know, taking away a lot of, you know, the things that got you there in the first place.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Why don't we take a second to, you know, what are some of the other things, why do, why do most entrepreneurs fail at doing it. Well, you know, what is that what are the biggest issues there.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I think the biggest thing that I run into is that they are in a

 

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Tom Rogerson: There in that conflict avoidance modalities. They're not really dealing with these issues and they're letting their children just kind of grow on their own, as opposed to really intentionally raising the creating that environment of entrepreneurship.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They want their children to take control of the business. Interestingly, because if you talk to the children. The children want to take control of the business. But that but the two of them never communicate about it effectively so they don't. And so I think that

 

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Tom Rogerson: Where we're finding like the entrepreneurship issue is particularly of interest for you the answers that we're dealing with. They're saying, in many cases,

 

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Tom Rogerson: G we we feel like so many people say to us, hey, you built your business. Now it's time for you to do good, you ought to start doing film philanthropic work and they're often saying, no, no.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I built the business. I'm providing jobs for people. I'm providing self esteem. I'm growing communities. I'm already doing good. These people are also very philanthropic

 

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Tom Rogerson: But how do I get my children are recognized the importance of taking over this business to take care of these this ecosystem. I've created

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so, that whole notion of entrepreneurship, to me, is is really a critical one and the culture of it. I do some work at Babson College and the course I'm teaching right now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: At Gordon college is on that notion of how do you create an entrepreneurial

 

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Tom Rogerson: Culture and it's different than than most parents would automatically create

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so we've you with that were in that entrepreneurial endeavor coming up lots of activities that we let the children engage in so they can start to make decisions. Learn how to make decisions at these lower levels.

 

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Tom Rogerson: That of consequence, so they can work their way up to the bigger decisions over time.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The vision we use on this is kind of think of railroad tracks going off into the distance.

 

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Tom Rogerson: As railroad tracks go off into the distance, it looks like if they go out 100 miles. It looks at they come together, eventually at the horizon at the vanishing point

 

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Tom Rogerson: Well, that kind of creates three different things going on. We have the right hand rail which to us is the family business and running the money and taking care of the assets.

 

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Tom Rogerson: There's the left hand rail which is focusing on the family and the recross ties that bind

 

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Tom Rogerson: The cross ties that bind are the activities they can do to help people transition from the family activities to the business activities.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they're very meaningful family philanthropy family vacation planning family meeting agenda planning and all kinds of activities that can be the cross ties.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Between the activity of building the sense of family and the activities of working on the business. That's an entrepreneurial incubator structure that we're talking about leading people through activities to get to the business side of the equation over time.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And if that's helpful but

 

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Michael Palumbos: No, I love that. And I think that's, you know, one of the things that if I look back at Columbus family vacation that we haven't done enough of

 

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Michael Palumbos: Is, you know, mom and dad have pretty much done most of the planning and there's a lot of things you know that that we can do differently.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And tonight, we have a zoom meeting where we're creating our first set of committees to allow you know other people to do

 

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Michael Palumbos: Pieces of the planning and kind of break it up into different groups. So I definitely appreciate that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Mom, and it was their baby. You know what I mean. So for them, it was like, kind of like the business when you think about it, that you know they didn't want to give it up right and

 

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Michael Palumbos: They in doubt it. So that would stay there. But if we don't know how to talk about it. If we don't know how to to you know make these things happen ourselves what's gonna what's going to happen when they're not here.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Mm hmm. Sean when we talk about family entrepreneurial mindset. And, you know, like you said you're dealing with a lot of family business businesses yourself.

 

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Michael Palumbos: What does that mean to you, where do you, where do you see you know how you know I mean I can immediately see how MTM you know 360 would do some of those things. But you want to spark on that a little bit or noodle on that with us.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Well, and our governance 360 project.

 

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Shawn Barberis: One of the deliverables is the family bank that we use to incentivize entrepreneurship that is consistent with the family core values to share core values and the shared vision that we've already established on the previous projects.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we want to incentivize that entrepreneurship from the next generation, whether it's, you know, starting a lemonade stand. And you need to read it on a piece of paper and crayons, like just get in the habit.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Of presenting your ideas why it's important. The impact, you want to make and

 

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Shawn Barberis: And getting them to think that way at a very young age, you know, what are your supplies. What are your costs. What are you just getting them to think

 

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Shawn Barberis: As business folks as soon as we can. So when we incentivize it to our governance project and governance entities.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Which I think is always very helpful, then obviously it can continue to grow and get more serious as as the next generation.

 

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Shawn Barberis: gets older, but we tried to establish that from the very beginning, at a minimum, establishing the family bank.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Gives a mechanism and again incentivizes the next generation to think entrepreneur an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur way. Excuse me.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So, so that that's the way that we approach it. We very much approach governance from being a proactive versus reactive

 

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Shawn Barberis: Stance. Now we can get a lot more positive results if we're proactive about governance and being reactive to a problem or an issue that we're concerned with

 

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Shawn Barberis: Being reactive. We still have a title, we still have we still have success obviously doing that.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But it's our preference to try to attack these issues from a proactive perspective. So we can mitigate any potential strife and also encouraged the behaviors that we want to encourage

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's a big part of integrating our values with our valuables. And we do a lot of that in our legacy 360 project.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's a big part. Okay, we want to incentivize specific purposeful positive behaviors from the next generation that are consistent with

 

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Shawn Barberis: Our core values, our shared vision or family legacy and mission statement that will help families create right

 

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Shawn Barberis: So that we can so that we can then get those behaviors from the next generation. So

 

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Shawn Barberis: We integrate values with valuables we integrate values.

 

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Shawn Barberis: With the actual planning and we certainly have a specific governance instrument dedicated to entrepreneurship and encouraging that entrepreneurship and getting the next generation of think like entrepreneurs from from a very young age. So that's our approach and how we attack it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. He let me just, you use the word family bank and I think some of the people listening hurt will will hear that and say, What in the world is that so in it. You spend a second to talk about that, if you don't mind.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So it's, it's just a trust and and the trust has certain parameters as to when it will loan money to one of the family members for a business idea. It says four criteria that that the

 

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Shawn Barberis: Potential business needs to me. Fun things not fun things but impactful things like okay, you're gonna you're gonna

 

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Shawn Barberis: Donate 25% of your profits to fill in the blank charity and and things that are required from the family bank that again are consistent with the core values.

 

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Shawn Barberis: The family vision, so forth. So we integrate those into the documents we put some assets inside that trust that are available to belong to for entrepreneurial ideas that again are consistent with the term set forth in the document.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So, so that's it's, it's just a, it's just a trust that has specific language in it to encourage entrepreneurship, but responsible purposeful entrepreneurship.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And again, we talked a lot of that about we do a lot of work with the UN and the sustainable development goals and integrating that into their finances.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We don't manage the money we don't do any of the financial stuff no product or

 

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Shawn Barberis: Investments or anything along those lines. We just do the MDM 360 piece, but we spark that conversation so that their team of professional advisors can integrate that into their existing planning, as well as the entrepreneurship as well.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great. I remember the first time I heard the term family bank and just didn't make any sense. So I appreciate you kind of describing that

 

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Shawn Barberis: For

 

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Everybody here.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Yes.

 

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Tom Rogerson: First time one of the family members that I was working with in a family Chicago heard of the idea they

 

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Tom Rogerson: One of the cousins was complaining to his his his other cousin that

 

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Tom Rogerson: Gee, we need a hockey rink in this town. It'd be so much easier because you know though.

 

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Tom Rogerson: If you're a young kid on a hockey team, the ice time is usually a rink ABOUT THREE TOWNS away at five o'clock in the morning and he was like, we need a rink in this town of be so much easier.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And he said his cousin said that's a good investment in the yacht to bring into the family bank, and he said, What's the family bank. He says, well,

 

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Tom Rogerson: Grandpa set up this trust and Uncle Joe, he's the chairman of it and they're looking for investment that's an investment yet to bring them. So this little kid go see uncle Josias Uncle Joe, I think we had invested in this a hockey rink.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Uncle Joe says, Great idea. Where's your business plan and this 14 year old kid says, what's a business plan.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Exactly. That's exactly right.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That's exactly right.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And he paired that kid up with an uncle and on to write a business plan. So he they they were teaching to edge two generations. At the same time, how to write a business plan.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But he came back and he came to the family meeting givens presentation a financial rite of passage for 14 year old that family. How many families have a financial rite of passage for 14 year old.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And he decided not to invest in the hockey rink, because he heard other people talk about rate of return. He's like, rate of return. What's that, I just want to hockey rink.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And but it was a great lesson. What's interesting is that he was learning by doing, and and that's really the crux of when I say entrepreneurship. What's a nocturnal mentality entrepreneurs and people that tend to do

 

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Tom Rogerson: To learn mid level managers that seemed to never be able to rise in and get out of their way our people to to kneel feel like they need to learn

 

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Tom Rogerson: To be able to do so they get degrees and all. And they learn in a shaped environment. It's very hard to be entrepreneurial if you've learned in the shaped environment because entrepreneurship is very unshaped it's very

 

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Tom Rogerson: So how do you create an environment of doing to learn. And these are all examples of when I say, you know, creating an entrepreneurial mentality. How do you do that.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Most entrepreneurship programs in the country are not actually teaching entrepreneurship, they're teaching middle of a management of small companies.

 

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Tom Rogerson: You know, once you have an idea. How do you finance it and then how do you run it and how do you manage resources and how do you hire people and fire people. And then how do you have an exit strategy.

 

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Tom Rogerson: That small business, business management that's not entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is think of a circle with four parts to it with the middle donut.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the four parts are the practice of play. Do I have a free and imaginative, mind you can teach these things. The practice of empathy.

 

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Tom Rogerson: If I get to the airport. There's a two hour line for security. Right. Just get in it and place it. Okay, I think that's a problem. And actually,

 

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Tom Rogerson: You know, and what do I see the problems in society. How do I look for those and see them and be more open minded about that. Thirdly, the practice of

 

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Tom Rogerson: Of creation, creating a solution to this problem that hopefully you've seen that, you know, in your friend. Imagine to mine.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then finally the or the fourth, one fourth corner of that is the practice of experimentation. Can I try and fail, is that okay and learn and try and fail and learn and try and fail or succeed.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then the middle, middle of the doughnut is the practice of reflection. So we're constantly looking at those things.

 

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Tom Rogerson: If a family has that mentality about everything that they're embarking upon they are working and thinking very differently. Communicating differently, but they're in an environment of trust and

 

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Tom Rogerson: Relationship around group decision making. And that to me is, again, you started with major in the majors were ending with major, major That's major. In the majors and getting to the right place. Hopefully effectively.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. Thank you. Hey, we're, we're running out of time here. Any parting words from either of you that you'd like to share. And then if you would share how people can reach out and contact you if they if they would like to

 

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Shawn Barberis: Talk to Tom. Go ahead.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sure, yeah. You can reach us at Jen leg co for generation a legacy company gen Lego je n Le G co.com that's our website.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I am Tom a Gen. Like, oh, my wife is Kathy with a see agenda Co. She's a relationship coach.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so she is the one that I do the kind of big picture work and the education. She actually dives into how we going to get Johnny and Mary actually being able to communicate on the heart issues together one on one. And, and so that's how you reach us

 

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Tom Rogerson: Great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thank you. Thank you.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So for me it's Sean SH AWS at MTN just like that. There's a hyphen in between and then 360 MTM hyphen 360 Shawn at MTM 360 dot com phone numbers for 10928 7420 or 10928 7420. Thank you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I appreciate both your time this was great. Like I always say, I wish I could do, you know, three hours of this, but I don't think most people would want to sit down and listen to three hours of

 

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Shawn Barberis: Us participating. Appreciate it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Have a great day. Everybody got Tom

 

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Tom Rogerson: was just gonna say if anybody would like I spoke at heckerling this last January, and the paper I wrote to accompany the talk I can send it to people. So if you'd like a copy of that just email me and I'll send it to you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Beautiful. Thank you for joining us on the family business show today. We look forward to seeing you next week on the next episode. Have a great day, everybody.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Thank you, Michael.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Thanks Michael.

Michael Palumbos: Welcome everybody to the family biz show. My name is Michael Columbus. I'll be your host today from family wealth and legacy

 

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Michael Palumbos: We are excited to have two people that I've thankfully spent some time speaking with and had met personally over through the years through the purposeful planning Institute.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And we're joined by Tom Roger son who has

 

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Michael Palumbos: very illustrious career Elena asked you to talk about that just a little bit in a second time and tell us about your journey and Sean

 

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Michael Palumbos: I just did that thing. Sean barbarous

 

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Michael Palumbos: I didn't get the name just, I apologize. Sean, I just wanted to say something else that just popped into my head wrong.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Sean has, you know, again, another great career and has done some really unique things with some software to help families out

 

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Michael Palumbos: Amongst many other things. So I, you know, ask you both to just talk about your journey. How did you get here, you know, at this point, talking with family businesses and families of wealth.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, how did that start for you. So Sean, why don't you kick us off and tell us about yourself a little bit

 

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Shawn Barberis: Sure. So how did I start working with families. Uh, well, it was during law school. I got a job down at a downtown law firm where I was doing a state and business planning for a lot of successful business owners obviously as a clerk. I'm still in law school.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So I really got exposed to all kinds of advanced planning.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Tactics and instruments during law school. So that was about 1997 that I started doing that and I started to really

 

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Shawn Barberis: Work in that industry. And then when my wife and I graduated law school, we passed the bar in 2000 I actually started my own law firm.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And which I carried on much of the same work I drafted documents crowd scratch trusts you know dynasty trust Aesop's, all that kind of fun stuff, buy. Sell agreements executive comp

 

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Shawn Barberis: And then folks can bring me their financial statements or life insurance, and I was not qualified or license to advise on

 

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Shawn Barberis: Financial and securities and insurance and so forth. So I got licensed and had a ton of fun and as a top 1% advisor for a number of years.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Started a financial services company from scratch with two partners that was just the three of us we grew it into 76 registered reps over 220 brokers around the country.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And then I left, I realized there was a hole in the middle of the professional planning donut through personal experience of working now with hundreds of high net worth and ultra high net worth families.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And I wanted to hire researchers at premier planning group at our financial services firms and my two partners kind of shied away think it was a little

 

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Shawn Barberis: Little too time intensive a little too expensive. So I respectfully sold my third in the business and I started my current company.

 

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Shawn Barberis: More than money 360 and we hired researchers that came back to us and highlighted the issues. Why wealth transfers fail.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And then we surveyed the market. It was very consultative market very time intensive market, a market that required people to be in the same place a lot and I thought that wasn't completely congruent to the busy geographically dispersed lifestyle.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we did. So we built our first version of the technology and Q4 of 2007 and

 

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Shawn Barberis: Right now we're launching our fifth version in September and it's been no holds barred full steam ahead. Ever since 2007 so we're excited. That's a little bit about my history at this point. And I'll turn it back over to you. Thank you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thanks, appreciate it. Tom, take a second. Introduce yourself.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sure, yeah. Tom Roger son and my background really started with a family history. My on my father side. My great grandfather was a very successful business leader in Boston.

 

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Tom Rogerson: became the president of Boston safe deposit and trust company grew to be the largest financial institution in the northeast by pretty much any measure

 

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Tom Rogerson: And started a foundation in Boston that right now has a little bit more than a billion dollars in it. So he was doing pretty well even by today's standards.

 

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Tom Rogerson: his estate plan was designed to get the bulk of the money down to the family, um, as great grandson, and it's gone.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Not because of bad investing or bad planning. We had phenomenal planning and phenomenal and he owned an investment management company. I mean, you can't

 

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Tom Rogerson: And it's gone because of how the family operated. I'm not saying anything bad about the family when they said that wonderful loving great family but

 

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Tom Rogerson: We didn't know what to do differently and we fell into the trap that most families fall into. So I started when I first became got out of college.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I started in the financial services industry and worked at Merrill Lynch and Kidder Peabody

 

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Tom Rogerson: But I was helping more in the planning side became the National Director of a state tax planning for a couple of Wall Street firms.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And wealth management firms, but going back about 30 years ago I started looking at the research of why families were failing.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And had almost nothing to do with the quality of the investment management had an almost nothing to the quality of the estate planning it and almost everything to do with where they preparing the family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so I started adding what I would now call family governance to what I was doing back then.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And I would talk about a generations hippie trust. But how do you introduce the family and people were much more

 

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Tom Rogerson: Interested in the, how do you introduce these things, the family than they were about the planning structures themselves.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So that became my focus and I now have had a chance to run family meetings for over 260 families now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: In helping them get started in this space. And I've done surveys of an additional over 200 families. On top of that, and now I just share that research and information with families and my wife and I do it together. But we do it together in a consultative approach.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. Well, thank you both for taking the time. And joining us

 

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Michael Palumbos: We spent a little bit of time together. The three of us check prepping the you know what what do we want to talk about what excites us and

 

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Michael Palumbos: In between the three of us and you know Tom throughout the strong family survived tough times the tough times are upon us. How's your family. And I think that's just a powerful you know question and a powerful metaphor for what is going on right now and you know

 

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Michael Palumbos: The, the first point that we, you know, we talked about was the fact that, you know, what are you know what are the things that strong family strong families do differently.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Than families that don't in the you know the strong families major in the majors.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so I guess let's start there. What are the majors, Tom, why don't you kick us off on on that and then Sean and I will, you know, bounce back and forth with you a little bit on you know where that takes us

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sure. Well, yeah, that the title. First of all, comes from. I've been doing this for quite a while. And we've gone through a number of issues before

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so I use that title to indicate the families and strong families do survive through tough times. I mean, in the surveys of the 200 plus families that we've worked with

 

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Tom Rogerson: Those families, almost all of them have survived through over 100 years of difficult times.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And it by definition, that means they've gone through the epidemic that we had before the Spanish flu, they they've lived through World Wars. They've lived through the depression, they've

 

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Tom Rogerson: Somehow these families got through some very difficult times. And it's very few that did but what were they doing differently. And I think the most interesting thing I found more recently is when

 

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Tom Rogerson: Or at least the reception we've gotten from explaining to people how it is that this happens.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And most wealth in this country is actually first generation wealth and those people often grew up with a middle class or maybe blue collar working class background or lower middle class background.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the way I would describe it, they grew up in a tremendous environment of interdependence. They had to work together when Johnny wanted to borrow the car and Friday night, everyone got involved in conversation because it's the car.

 

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Tom Rogerson: When Jill wants to go to college. Everyone gets involved because if she goes to college, our lives are all going to change.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they learned interdependence, they often shared a bathroom in the morning, they often had summer jobs and shared, you know, the environment at home, they learned

 

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Tom Rogerson: They didn't like it, but they knew about each other, they

 

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Tom Rogerson: To know, and to be known as a very foundational human characteristic and they didn't know each other better. Well, if somebody in that family succeeds. They want to get away from all that hardship.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And if they have financial success they want to use that money and very often do to build independence in their family, instead of interdependence.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To give their children, their own bedroom their own bathroom private school summer camp.

 

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Tom Rogerson: fewer opportunities to interact, they love each other, but they actually don't know each other as well their dinner table conversations are more social. How's your golf game. How's your tennis game.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So what we're basically doing when we get together with families is and we tell them this, and it's our mission statement agenda leg.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Our mission is to introduce and reintroduce the family to itself repeatedly with metrics to measure results and success.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that's really the crux is that's the major the major is they don't know each other as well as they could.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And to change culture changing it from the inside out is very difficult. They often need somebody to help them start the process of changing culture, see the vision and then help them start the roadmap to get there. So that's a little how we do it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. You know, it's funny when you when you're talking about that I'm

 

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Michael Palumbos: Working with a family right now that it's they're very, you know, it's the transition from generation to generation three, which is where a lot of these things start to show themselves, right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And what they, you know, we're setting up a family meeting and the families getting together for a weekend and, you know, we're just doing three a three hour session.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And, you know, they're like, we know how to do a picnic. We know how to do a family reunion. What do you guys getting in the middle of this for

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so one of the things that you know we had to explain to all members of the family is why

 

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Michael Palumbos: And it's, you know, you know how to do all of the the fun stuff. But it's that getting to know each other piece. There are people that don't know each other because people have married into the family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We don't know where their family came from. We don't know what their background is, and, you know, it's time to reintroduce each other, ourselves, I'd love what you're saying. I think that's just a great way of saying it, Tom.

 

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Michael Palumbos: John so when you're thinking about these things and you know

 

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Michael Palumbos: The, the Major on the majors and the the tough times are upon us. And you know, I, one of the things I love about both you guys is that you both did some, you know, spend time doing research and studying these things. What did

 

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Michael Palumbos: What came out of the things that you're you know that you've looked at through the years.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Now, so back in, oh seven when we hired our initial researchers, we identified the six reasons why wealth transfers fail and

 

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Shawn Barberis: As, as Tom mentioned, none of them have to do with the finances. So the number one issue that we identified

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is communication and the lack thereof. So we break it down in our digital system and our technology we literally break it down step by step.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We start with what is meaningful communication define what that means. Well, it's open. It's honest It's respectful you're listening right so let's establish the ground rules of what meaningful communication is

 

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Shawn Barberis: And then we take the family through a number of our

 

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Shawn Barberis: Exercises in our technology to identify their social styles identify how they prefer to communicate how the others in your family prefer to communicate.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And identify those styles and then learn what the positives and negatives of each style.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is and how you can adapt your communication to reduce conflict, increase the level of meaningful communication.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So number one would be communication that's that's that's majoring in the majors. That is the lifeblood of successful wealth transfer in the hundreds of families that we've consulted.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That is where we start and they also my clients will get tired of me here saying that communication is a process, not an event, something that you need to continually work on

 

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Shawn Barberis: So every single family meeting that we do in between and our exercises. We're always focusing on communication, but some of the other things are shared vision.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, a lot of our research indicated the next generation feel dictated to they wanted to have a voice in what the vision of the family was

 

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Shawn Barberis: And so we all know that we don't react very well when we're dictated to. But when we engage those and they feel that they have a voice. So that's one thing we do, we get the family having a conversation

 

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Shawn Barberis: We spark that meaningful dialogue. After creating the focus on communication. Now what are we going to communicate well let's communicate together about creating the shared vision because I'd say engage in next generation.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But specifically for from family businesses which we consult a lot with we take an

 

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Shawn Barberis: Approach of providing system and process, not only through our technology, but taking an approach of beginning with the end in mind.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Working inside out. What is the impact we want the family business to have on the family. And once we decide that we can then have more clarity about how to properly manage the business assets so

 

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Shawn Barberis: As far as, as far as, you know, majoring in the majors, I would say communication shared vision working inside out and certainly having system process and making it consistent getting everybody into a rhythm.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, what we do is we spend 30 minutes a month with each one of our clients and they know every, every month. They're spending 30 minutes with one of our 37 advisors to be able to move that conversation along.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that touching them every month really creates a Rolling Thunder of momentum. And then you have the family medium which is just an enormous explosion of of communication.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But that's where we start. That's how we major in the majors is focusing on that communication vision and system and process.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great. You know, you talk about the big begin with the end in mind and working, what did you say from the inside.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Outside outside

 

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It's

 

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Shawn Barberis: working, it's working inside. I do have to give credit the Libra, Libra. Our from powered wealth is a friend of mine. I think that's his

 

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Michael Palumbos: That's his chair. I didn't know leave from

 

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Shawn Barberis: Coach Yeah that yeah I that's how I met Lee was through Strategic Coach in Chicago, you know, so, so that's that's a big part of how we approach it.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And obviously we have a tremendous focus on governance, we have an entire project dedicated to governance.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that element also is something that I think the the successful families. Look at how are we going to resolve disputes, how are we going to make decisions. Let's do it proactively not reactive Lee before we have

 

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Shawn Barberis: emotional damage and we need to bring in Tom Roger son's wife to help us out. So yeah, for sure. That's a big part of how we approach it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Wonderful.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Now, giving the example of how some of this can come together in a family. We had a chance to do some things with the green family of Hobby Lobby fame and

 

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Tom Rogerson: When we met with them over a three day period of time and Oklahoma City. We met with March, the first day, the sun, one of the sons

 

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Tom Rogerson: And Mark was talking about the fact that they have a family meeting every month and everybody comes and

 

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Tom Rogerson: They take it really seriously and they have a celebration of everybody had a birthday that month. And they, but I don't mean just birthday cake and a hat and everything.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They, they really acknowledge each other and they talked about what do i respect about you and like about you and you know, really, they really spend time and they do some philanthropy during that monthly meeting and all

 

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Tom Rogerson: And it just sounded the team building activities that they do are really profound and so the next day I was talking to David green. And David said, you know, we've only had three family meetings in the history of my family business.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I said, David to admit it yesterday. Mark said, you have a family meeting every month. He said, Oh yeah, he's talking about the meetings where we focus on building strong family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I'm talking about the meetings where we talked about money in the business.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They only talked about money in the business three times and I can tell you what those were later but that but there really a powerful

 

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Tom Rogerson: But he said the three meetings where we focused on the business in the money and what we had to do trend, you know, transformative things we had to do in the business those went well because of the monthly meetings.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The third day, I had a chance to meet with one of the granddaughters and her new husband she married a little bit more than six months and her new husband was saying.

 

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Tom Rogerson: This family is incredible. I can't believe how connected. I already feel

 

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Tom Rogerson: Months before I got married, they were inviting me to their family meeting and they know me well I know them well I'm I feel really connected

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then he said something that I think is one of the best lines. I've ever heard. He said in those meetings we build the bridge of trust and grace so we can drive the truck of truth over it.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that to me is really the talk about a foundational issue communication is really important. But the biggest reason that family say they fail is due to lack of trust around group decision making.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so how do you build trust and they do it very intentionally on a monthly meeting basis and and that it's those kinds of activities. We're trying to bring in. How do you build trust.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Because the natural tendency is for people to triangulate if I've got a problem with my brother, rather than go to my brother, I'd go to my wife.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And talk to her about what she thinks. Now I get support. Now I've got a Union before I had a belief. Now I'm right because she agrees.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so I've just caused a problem with my wife's relationship with my brother, and she doesn't even talk to him about these things.

 

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Tom Rogerson: How do we help families get around that. And that's what my wife and I, when we get together with families. We really need to. That is a major

 

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Tom Rogerson: That when we get together feminine. We've got to focus on how do we get them being able and willing to speak truth to each other and get into a place of safety, where they can do that. So then they they can communicate. Yeah.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And that makes so much sense. And when you think about you know the the three circle model that will you know that came up, years ago, you know, the family, the business and ownership.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Right. Um, and it gets so complicated. The reason why it gets so complicated. Is that communication and trust when we just have the business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I can go home and I don't have to worry about those people that I work with. And, you know, we can you know the really great businesses they get really good at communication. Right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And we know that from studies over and over again. But within the family we have those dynamics that go back to the time when

 

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Michael Palumbos: Remember when you know you stole my Barbie doll and smashed it up and you know all of the things that have happened for four years that make it so much more difficult to

 

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Michael Palumbos: Kind of, you know, peel back the onion and get to the truth, as you said, you know, I love that analogy of, we need to build what did say that again, build the bridge of

 

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Tom Rogerson: Grace and trust so we can drive the truck of truth over it and I just love that that is a and I've got so many families focusing and doing exactly that same thing

 

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Michael Palumbos: Phenomenal. Um, so once again. So let's just kind of summarize these things if you had to go through

 

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Michael Palumbos: Sean, you know, there's the majors. You said there were six things that everybody should be focusing on. Let's hit those six things from your perspective and then Tom if there's anything that you want to add to those that would be helpful helpful.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Well, we identified six reasons why well by wealth transfers fail.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That's what I was

 

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Shawn Barberis: Yeah, so, gosh, let me go through them all. Lack of meaningful communication lack of transparency, like trust lack of a shared vision.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Lack of system of process and lack of governance are the six reasons why wealth transfers fail and

 

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Shawn Barberis: That's why we created our technology and we created projects around each one of them. One is values where we have five levels folks on values ones legacy ones governance ones gratitude, which is our philanthropic

 

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Shawn Barberis: Which is our philanthropic project. So we built those around those pillars as to why wealth transfers fail so we can mitigate that risk for families as best we can.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it, Tom.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Man at

 

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Shawn Barberis: The same time, though, and I'd say,

 

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Shawn Barberis: I think it's critically important, not only help the mitigate the reasons why wealth transfers fail but fit that busy socially distance geographically dispersed lifestyle. We have found lots of ways in our 13 years to make family meetings, more efficient, more impactful.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And more purposeful, as we've gone through the years and we continue to fine tune and use those. But moving everybody towards that family meeting, which really is that wonderful blaster communication that you referenced earlier.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Perfect.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Tom, anything to add to the majors.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Well, I think one of the big majors that many of the entrepreneurs are particularly interested in is that

 

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Tom Rogerson: Is the notion that entrepreneurs recognize they grew up in an entrepreneurial incubator that interdependent environment that I was describing of a working class background is an incubator for entrepreneurship.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that's a culture that's quite different, because those very same people that grew up in an entrepreneurial incubator raised their children in an entrepreneurial kills zone.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they don't know what they do. They don't know differently. And so to help them understand how to reintroduce an entrepreneurial incubator mentality an entrepreneur, we call it having an a family in this culture.

 

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Tom Rogerson: linked to an entrepreneurial mindset. And what would that look like because that is a very different dynamic.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The I'm doing I'm creating a teaching a course at Gordon college on family governance this very topic.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But that's a major portion of the course is, how do you create an entrepreneurial environment and decision making process at home.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Because as we said earlier, the, the crux of the issue. The number one biggest reason that famous fails due to lack of trust or on group decision making.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And yet, if we build an independent family that is separates and and doesn't know each other as well as they could.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Those are the very same people that are theoretically going to take over the family business when mom and dad are gone, but they have no experience at working together.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So we're trying to reintroduce it to me. It's that families often are focusing on avoiding conflict.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they avoid, avoid, avoid until it explodes in their face. Well, how do you set an actual process of practicing and managing conflict.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So when something a more significant consequence comes to bear you can handle it. And that's exactly what the Greens are doing on those monthly meetings. They're creating the bridge of trust.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So when they have the major crises, they actually can communicate in a trusting honest way and get to that place of transparency. So, but they are a very entrepreneurial mentality in their family and that's a culture most famous don't know how to do.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Got it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: From there, you know, we've hit on them several times, we talk talking about the family meetings.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Let's, let's dive dive into family meetings, a little bit more

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, why are these Why are family meetings in necessity and what are the what are the aspects, what are the what are the right tools, what are the right things that have to be done in order to conduct a meaningful family meeting, Tom, why don't you kick that off, if you don't mind.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sure, yeah. Um, basically in the surveys, we've done in the studies we've looked at as well.

 

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Tom Rogerson: families that are having family meetings succeed and families that are not having family meetings, don't. I mean, if you want to fail. Don't have family meetings.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And a family meeting is not where you talk about the money. It's where you focus on building that sense of who we are as a family, so

 

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Tom Rogerson: You know, that's like the greens. I love that they had three family meetings really talked about the money and they a monthly ones for years that they focus on the family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But what we created was a six step process to help me get started and family meetings.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I for years I had people who would come to the presentations. I was doing and they would take copious notes, these, you know, husbands and wives.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then write down all these ideas and they come up and clarify them. Make sure they're really set

 

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Tom Rogerson: And and and I later on. I figured out what they're what they're doing. They're taking all these notes to go home and implement these things to their family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Well, they may have the right message, but they're the wrong messenger

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so what we came to realize is, they often need somebody else to come in and help them get started.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So we created what we call the six step process to healthy family governance and the the six steps of what we take a family through in the family meeting process.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Step one. Actually happens before the meeting we do an assessment of everybody in the family.

 

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Tom Rogerson: We give them a series of statements that they read like our family makes decisions really effectively where everybody feels heard and seen

 

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Tom Rogerson: Okay. On one side of the page. How important is that that statement for your family to accomplish and and the other side of the page, how well you're doing it right now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They send all those to us. We tabulate them and then we have a chance when we come to the family meeting to share with them.

 

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Tom Rogerson: By your own admission, here's where the biggest gaps are that you as a family. Say you want to work on these are really important items that you're not doing as effective jobs, you'd like

 

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Tom Rogerson: So let's focus on those because of the ones relevant to you.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So that's step one. The assessment. Step two is when we get to the family meeting the education process. They need to understand why our families failing as a group. So there's a level playing field.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And during that education process we share them. The results of the assessment third step is we do think that they need a leadership style.

 

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Tom Rogerson: assessment of how they approach a topic that communication issue that Sean was talking about.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I approached the world differently. I see it differently. And I say what I saw differently. And very often what you disagree with about me is not what we're arguing about it's how we're arguing about it, that was causing the disagreement.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So we take them through an assessment so they can learn how to do that differently. And then we take them through a style shifting exercise.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The fourth step is a values exercise. What do we believe in what do I believe in and where the shared values attributes.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To come up with, and sometimes a shared value by most people is divisive to the rest. Well, how do you make, how do you handle that. What do you do with that.

 

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Tom Rogerson: All of this leads to them having a starting come up with as a group action steps, what can we do about it.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the final step is then, how do we put a plan around this where the estate plan actually takes into account the purpose of the family as articulated and created by the family meeting process.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the last piece of that was number of years ago.

 

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Tom Rogerson: An attorney name Marvin bloom and I thought you know one thing we're seeing and families that are succeeding. They're not only doing family meetings. They're endowing the process.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And we created a trust structure called a fast family advancement sustainability trust and we will not read an article in the trust in the States magazine.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Number of years ago, three years ago about this and it's really a trust to endow the family meeting process because the ideas if we're doing family meetings and they're going really well.

 

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Tom Rogerson: When mom and dad are gone. The family will keep doing it wasn't happening because there if we went from one couple of organizing and paying

 

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Tom Rogerson: For it for two, three couples maybe now with three kids organizing and they weren't doing it. They were saying, I got other things to do. I'm busy.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But if it was endowed they were highly likely to keep doing it because if one of them couldn't do it this year. The other two are saying, hey, we'll miss you. But we're spending your share on this year's meeting.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And guess what, to be there. The next year, all three. And so endowing the meeting turned out to be really important as well.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But that's what we think a family meeting process should look like. Our role is to work away out of a job. We want them to pick up the ball and run with it, but we find that usually takes two or three meetings before they're ready to do to do that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. You know, it's I'll share with you pull up the Columbus family does belong. This family vacation.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And we've been doing it now for 20 years and we have siblings. We were all over the country and we would get together and so the cousins could meet, you know, spend time together as we were doing things

 

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Michael Palumbos: When I talked about the that next level of communication. My father was like, No, no, this is, this is just vacation. This is, you know, we're not adding any of that fluffy stuff in, Mike.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And

 

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Michael Palumbos: But on the other hand, he did in Del PF V, as we call it, Columbus family vacation, so that will be endowed for many, many generations.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so one of the conversations I had with the family was if we don't learn to communicate even though the money's there. Do you think that will continue to do a good job of deciding how to make these things happen.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so this year, we have a specialist coming in for PSP to talk about disk profiles and in communication systems and you know how that works within our family so

 

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Michael Palumbos: We're taking the one out of, out of your page and appreciate that, Sean, you, you know, have a your system is all designed for

 

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Michael Palumbos: Family family meetings. Why don't you walk us through you know you again, you have the six different pieces to that. Tell us some more about that how that works to make those family meetings, you know, meaningful and much easier to conduct, you know, to conduct.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Yeah and you know I Tom and I are old friends. We've had this conversation and I respectfully disagree with a little bit of his business model, a lot of that work assessments explaining why we're together.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We do ahead of time so so we noticed a few things I interviewed Roy Williams back in 2007 God rest his soul. And I talked to him about some of the things that he found when we identified the reasons why wealth transfers fail and family meetings like justice Tom absolutely correctly.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Alluded to are the best way to help mitigate wealth transfer failure in attack those six reasons.

 

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Shawn Barberis: I interviewed ROI for some time and asked him, you know, what are some of the things that you'd like to sing better happened with with family meetings and he highlighted.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That much of the next generation comes in very guarded not understanding exactly what they're going to be doing during that time.

 

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Shawn Barberis: They don't really feel like they've had a lot of input. He was him. And I had a very extended conversation over course of several, several

 

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Shawn Barberis: Months as to how we can get the next generation more engaged right out of the gate. So what we've done.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Actually is we before we even engage with a family we complete our digital assessment and it's 40 questions. It tells us where they're where they're strong

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we've just we know exactly what their baseline is if they even have a need for are more than money 316 platform. So we start with that before we even engage with them.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we complete that assessment and then they say, yep. Let's go. So the first thing we do then is we get the entire family together on a zoom meeting again. We were very attracted to that busy geographically dispersed family. So we do a lot through

 

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Shawn Barberis: online meetings and we have since 2012

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we get around the zoom meeting. We have a presentation. We do we call more than money. The what the why the how, what the heck is it, why the heck should I care and how and how are we going to do this.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we get the family on the same page from the very beginning as to why they're even embarking

 

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Shawn Barberis: On this journey on this conversation. What the heck is it, why is it important, well, you lose all your money but family unit these kind of break

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, the, the intangible assets of the founders going to be gone. And then how are we going to do it. Well, we're going to invest 30 minutes a month, which is what we immediately go into

 

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Shawn Barberis: After that presentation and depending on which of our projects were on we spend 30 minutes we identify social side we identify the core values we identify the shared core values.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We set a three year vision and we do all of this prior to walking into the family meeting. The other thing that we do that that

 

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Shawn Barberis: I think really just lowers the guard a lot is after our 430 minute consultation in one of our projects we propose a

 

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Shawn Barberis: An agenda for the family meeting and we show it. The little Johnny we show with the Little Susie, we get his or we get all their input we shot the mom and dad grandma, grandpa whoever's whoever's invited to the family meeting.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Gets equal input as to what's on that agenda so that that gets buying that gets engaged.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So then we walk into the family meeting. We've done all the assessments. We've done all the pre work. And now we have an agenda where we can sit down, eyes up and communicate with one another in the eye.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And and really have an impactful family meeting. So we do a lot of pre work really we take a very practical approach if you have an important meeting, whether it's a work.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Church family you prepare for it. And that's what our technology allows us to do. And that's a big

 

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Shawn Barberis: Big way that we're a little bit different. We completely concur that the family meeting is essential to multi generational success, but we just prepare for it a little bit different way and we try to keep our family meetings.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Shorter and far more impactful four or five, maybe six hours. Max and leave with a lot of clarity and momentum as we jump into the as we jump into the next project.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great, you know, and that's one of the nice things about the world that we live in is, you know, we can have different ways of doing things and and still be effective. And what we're doing. I love

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know I Sean I

 

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Michael Palumbos: I love your software.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thank you. And as we've talked about it before I have not had a the the ability to tap into it and I think I just found a way that that might might happen. I think for some families.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That is going to be super powerful to deal with the flip side of that, though, is I i do you know I found some families that unless you sit them down and bring them together and make these things happen.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Without you know they're they're not going to show up for the 30 minute meetings that to invest those things they need that that big reason to all be there.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I think Tom's you know method of doing that brings a lot of those families together. I've got one in my head that I'm just thinking about

 

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Michael Palumbos: If I asked them to show up for a 30 minute meeting once a month. I'm going to get about 50% by in nobody's going to do the work and I really need them to you know to do things differently.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Yeah, we

 

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Shawn Barberis: We, we don't have that problem at all, because we set the expectation that initial zoom meeting where we go through the what the, why the hell.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That this is what we need from you and I will say I need approximately eight hours from you over six months if investing eight hours over six months, including the family meeting.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is too much time for you to invest back into family unity, creating a shared vision, essentially, then you know this isn't for you.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But if you can spare eight hours over six months then then we're going to make a tremendous amount of progress family meeting July 2

 

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Shawn Barberis: With a family that engage with us, June 26 then we had a meeting yesterday to finalize the agenda.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And we look back over the year and and they can't believe the agenda me, excuse me, the progress. They've made in a year because we take this baby step approach. You take a take 1000 baby steps you look over your shoulder, and you've walked a mile.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's a big part of how we do it. So we have tremendous engagement on those 30 minute consultations, because it's also convenient. I have the next generation that will do it if they're walking down the street Manhattan headed to a meeting.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, my rule is, I don't care what you're doing as long as, as long as you're closed and you give me

 

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Shawn Barberis: Focus, a month. That's, that's all I care about. Or keep your camera off either way.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But no, we have tremendous engagement on the 30 minute consultation, because I think once families go through our process, they realize how much how impactful.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That time is when we get to the family meeting we really hit the ground running with with guards down and and communication up so yeah we we have, we have a lot of engagement on on those at this point.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great Man Maybe it's, you know, as we all say we come to everything that we do with our own biases. So maybe it's just

 

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Michael Palumbos: My biases in

 

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Michael Palumbos: Terms of looking at the family and how I think that they learn

 

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Michael Palumbos: Tom is that

 

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Michael Palumbos: Your family now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Yeah you you prompted this you would mention the vacation thing because we floated number of ideas that a family meeting because we want the next generation to buy into the idea

 

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Tom Rogerson: But one of the top ideas that the next generation often buy into that they want and then they own it. But was this idea of a family vacation and we started this years ago with our family we gave our children a budget and and we let them.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Plan a vacation and after they planned it they would then invite us. My wife and me to go in the vacation that they planned.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And you know, I don't want to let them control my retirement account. And if I own the business. I don't want them jumping into running a business yet. But what's the worst thing that they could do if they plan a vacation. And this last year. This is the vacation. They planned.

 

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Tom Rogerson: On budget and we went to Costa Rica and on this is Christmas day we're taking surplus and they lined the whole thing up and they invited us to go

 

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Tom Rogerson: Really funny was they got round trip tickets from Boston to Costa Rica for $200 per person.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Wow. The friend from a close town in hang them that they spent more than our family spend on our entire family per person to get them to down to Costa Rica.

 

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Tom Rogerson: For the same week that we were there. So they did. They learned a ton. But they've done this over time they've learned a ton about each other and how to do things.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the reason this often comes across better floated by an outsider. I'll give you an example in the philanthropic area. I was going to do a family meeting for a family and

 

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Tom Rogerson: I was talking to parents ahead of time. And I asked them, Is there an amount of money, you'd like them to give to charity or you'd be willing to let them give to charity.

 

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Tom Rogerson: That I could talk about. And they said, yeah, we talked, we thought about them way here. We want them to give away about $30,000 a year out of our foundation

 

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Tom Rogerson: And I said, great, we just let me float that number at the meeting. And they said, Oh, no, no, no, no, we thought about that too. We, we actually you're gonna love this, Tom. They said,

 

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Tom Rogerson: We're going to put that we're going to engrave that number in wood and we're going to wrap it up in a box and put a ribbon over it. We're going to give it to them as our gift. I mean, there were gonna tissues out everyone's gonna be, it's gonna be really powerful.

 

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Tom Rogerson: So I talked to them about and they finally said, wow, you're right. That would be a bad idea. Wouldn't. And I said, Yeah. I think that'd be a bad idea and and because what

 

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Michael Palumbos: Why is that a bad idea.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Because what they recognize if they wrap that number up and put it in a box, who chose the number

 

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Tom Rogerson: Who chose the number

 

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Tom Rogerson: Yeah, really.

 

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Tom Rogerson: What to do if I get to float the number and say, what about your family. What if your parents had I don't know $30,000 when you give to charity.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Could you anything meaningful that and watch the children sit up and look at the parents like hey, would you be willing

 

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Tom Rogerson: And that the parents were able to sit back and say, Hey, guys. It's a lot of money. We'd love to but could do anything meaningful.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To watch the children, trying to convince the parents that they ought to invest this $30,000 same number, trying to get to. But

 

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Tom Rogerson: How we get them where they want to go. We think is as important as where we're trying to get them and so

 

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Tom Rogerson: That's where an outsider can do these things. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes, but how these ideas are we want the children. We call it be, oh he buy in.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To ownership to empowerment. If we can float the ideas and they choose it. They own it. If they own it. They're empowered by it and ultimately

 

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Tom Rogerson: We're, we're trying to get families. The reason we call this whole title strong families survive tough times.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To to feel known and to know others and feel connected and a sense of place and purpose creates a much higher sense of

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sense of resilience in people no matter what the struggles are they faced with. They can get through them.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And to hear the history of the family to know what our families gotten through before. How did grandma and grandpa get through the depression. How do they get to the World Wars. How do they get to the loss of a child.

 

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Tom Rogerson: To have a family that knows those things and and

 

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Tom Rogerson: Allows them to individually be more resilient today and more resilient as a family, and it's those activities. So this looks like a lot of fun in the background, but in reality.

 

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Tom Rogerson: It's what makes the difference and the families that have grown independent, to the point of estrangement haven't built the interdependence that we're trying to reintroduce the family in this process. We take families through

 

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Michael Palumbos: Lava. Thank you, Sean, you just

 

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Michael Palumbos: An example or, you know, a story without, you know, names or families or whatnot, but could you just, you know, kind of guide us through you know maybe somebody some of the examples of things that you've done with families and you know how the what the reactions were

 

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Shawn Barberis: That specificity. Specifically, give me a little bit what you see

 

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Michael Palumbos: I guess that would be

 

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Michael Palumbos: A success story using the software. What are some of the things that you saw coming you know as families were building upon these things. Well, what are some of your favorite stories to share with other other families.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Well, I think one of the biggest things is a lot of families want to have this conversation. They don't know how to have this conversation just as Tom alluded to. And if you look at the data and research and

 

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Shawn Barberis: Data and research that we've done. They're looking for someone from the outside to provide that process structure and that spark.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's really, that's really what we do, through our technology and not and not only through and obviously through our family meetings is provide that system process in Spark.

 

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Shawn Barberis: You know, we have families that are blended that are recently blended that hired us to kind of come together as one family we, you know, so

 

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Shawn Barberis: The 28 families. We have now I think a good eight or nine of them are blended a large number of them are family businesses, trying to figure out exactly how to

 

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Shawn Barberis: liquidate the family business, they realize Little Johnny was not interested in the business, but maybe a little Susie was and that really

 

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Shawn Barberis: Surprised surprised them one company and specifically, they, they were really surprised and and you know, part of this is that this can be a self realization and also a family realization process.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Just like they realized the data was more interested in the family business, and the sun that happens almost with every single family we engage in they learned something about a family member that they didn't know

 

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Shawn Barberis: So there's lots of success stories from elevating communication. We also are we also coined the term active gratitude. We think stroke in a check is incredibly generous. But what's in the best interest of your family multi generationally

 

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Shawn Barberis: Is actively participating and philanthropic events together, getting your hands dirty. I have one family who

 

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Shawn Barberis: One of their one element of their shirts philanthropic vision is animals, and there was a five K run or whatever it was, and they volunteered to end up water bottles to the ranch.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And they just got real silly, you know, say Fido, you know, the first somebody run about this is regard feel they just, they still talk about this day they did it seven years ago.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And they still joke about it, but that's a wonderful way to teach of wealth as a social responsibility to teach gratitude over entitlement.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And also decrease shared experiences of value and strengthen that family unity. So we have we have lots of success, success stories is the

 

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Shawn Barberis: Biggest success stories we have 100% client retention rate since 2012 So folks, keep coming back. We're doing something right.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But, but, but for each family. It's different. What that success is because each have different goals each have different different visions. So we've seen that we've seen those successes manifest in a number of different ways over our years of working with families.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. Yeah, I don't think you can go much further than 100%

 

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Shawn Barberis: We're proud of that for sure we're proud for you. Sure.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. We have something you said, kind of, you know, pairs off of, you know, the creating that that mindset that the the family entrepreneurial mindset that

 

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Michael Palumbos: I do you know I would. I do believe that that makes such a big difference. Tom when you you know you give us that picture of the, you know, one generation is, you know, the they're scrapping their way to the top. And we want to make it easier for the next generation.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And what you're actually doing is, you know, taking away a lot of, you know, the things that got you there in the first place.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Why don't we take a second to, you know, what are some of the other things, why do, why do most entrepreneurs fail at doing it. Well, you know, what is that what are the biggest issues there.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I think the biggest thing that I run into is that they are in a

 

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Tom Rogerson: There in that conflict avoidance modalities. They're not really dealing with these issues and they're letting their children just kind of grow on their own, as opposed to really intentionally raising the creating that environment of entrepreneurship.

 

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Tom Rogerson: They want their children to take control of the business. Interestingly, because if you talk to the children. The children want to take control of the business. But that but the two of them never communicate about it effectively so they don't. And so I think that

 

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Tom Rogerson: Where we're finding like the entrepreneurship issue is particularly of interest for you the answers that we're dealing with. They're saying, in many cases,

 

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Tom Rogerson: G we we feel like so many people say to us, hey, you built your business. Now it's time for you to do good, you ought to start doing film philanthropic work and they're often saying, no, no.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I built the business. I'm providing jobs for people. I'm providing self esteem. I'm growing communities. I'm already doing good. These people are also very philanthropic

 

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Tom Rogerson: But how do I get my children are recognized the importance of taking over this business to take care of these this ecosystem. I've created

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so, that whole notion of entrepreneurship, to me, is is really a critical one and the culture of it. I do some work at Babson College and the course I'm teaching right now.

 

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Tom Rogerson: At Gordon college is on that notion of how do you create an entrepreneurial

 

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Tom Rogerson: Culture and it's different than than most parents would automatically create

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so we've you with that were in that entrepreneurial endeavor coming up lots of activities that we let the children engage in so they can start to make decisions. Learn how to make decisions at these lower levels.

 

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Tom Rogerson: That of consequence, so they can work their way up to the bigger decisions over time.

 

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Tom Rogerson: The vision we use on this is kind of think of railroad tracks going off into the distance.

 

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Tom Rogerson: As railroad tracks go off into the distance, it looks like if they go out 100 miles. It looks at they come together, eventually at the horizon at the vanishing point

 

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Tom Rogerson: Well, that kind of creates three different things going on. We have the right hand rail which to us is the family business and running the money and taking care of the assets.

 

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Tom Rogerson: There's the left hand rail which is focusing on the family and the recross ties that bind

 

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Tom Rogerson: The cross ties that bind are the activities they can do to help people transition from the family activities to the business activities.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And they're very meaningful family philanthropy family vacation planning family meeting agenda planning and all kinds of activities that can be the cross ties.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Between the activity of building the sense of family and the activities of working on the business. That's an entrepreneurial incubator structure that we're talking about leading people through activities to get to the business side of the equation over time.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And if that's helpful but

 

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Michael Palumbos: No, I love that. And I think that's, you know, one of the things that if I look back at Columbus family vacation that we haven't done enough of

 

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Michael Palumbos: Is, you know, mom and dad have pretty much done most of the planning and there's a lot of things you know that that we can do differently.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And tonight, we have a zoom meeting where we're creating our first set of committees to allow you know other people to do

 

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Michael Palumbos: Pieces of the planning and kind of break it up into different groups. So I definitely appreciate that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Mom, and it was their baby. You know what I mean. So for them, it was like, kind of like the business when you think about it, that you know they didn't want to give it up right and

 

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Michael Palumbos: They in doubt it. So that would stay there. But if we don't know how to talk about it. If we don't know how to to you know make these things happen ourselves what's gonna what's going to happen when they're not here.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Mm hmm. Sean when we talk about family entrepreneurial mindset. And, you know, like you said you're dealing with a lot of family business businesses yourself.

 

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Michael Palumbos: What does that mean to you, where do you, where do you see you know how you know I mean I can immediately see how MTM you know 360 would do some of those things. But you want to spark on that a little bit or noodle on that with us.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Well, and our governance 360 project.

 

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Shawn Barberis: One of the deliverables is the family bank that we use to incentivize entrepreneurship that is consistent with the family core values to share core values and the shared vision that we've already established on the previous projects.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So we want to incentivize that entrepreneurship from the next generation, whether it's, you know, starting a lemonade stand. And you need to read it on a piece of paper and crayons, like just get in the habit.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Of presenting your ideas why it's important. The impact, you want to make and

 

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Shawn Barberis: And getting them to think that way at a very young age, you know, what are your supplies. What are your costs. What are you just getting them to think

 

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Shawn Barberis: As business folks as soon as we can. So when we incentivize it to our governance project and governance entities.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Which I think is always very helpful, then obviously it can continue to grow and get more serious as as the next generation.

 

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Shawn Barberis: gets older, but we tried to establish that from the very beginning, at a minimum, establishing the family bank.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Gives a mechanism and again incentivizes the next generation to think entrepreneur an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur way. Excuse me.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So, so that that's the way that we approach it. We very much approach governance from being a proactive versus reactive

 

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Shawn Barberis: Stance. Now we can get a lot more positive results if we're proactive about governance and being reactive to a problem or an issue that we're concerned with

 

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Shawn Barberis: Being reactive. We still have a title, we still have we still have success obviously doing that.

 

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Shawn Barberis: But it's our preference to try to attack these issues from a proactive perspective. So we can mitigate any potential strife and also encouraged the behaviors that we want to encourage

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's a big part of integrating our values with our valuables. And we do a lot of that in our legacy 360 project.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And that's a big part. Okay, we want to incentivize specific purposeful positive behaviors from the next generation that are consistent with

 

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Shawn Barberis: Our core values, our shared vision or family legacy and mission statement that will help families create right

 

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Shawn Barberis: So that we can so that we can then get those behaviors from the next generation. So

 

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Shawn Barberis: We integrate values with valuables we integrate values.

 

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Shawn Barberis: With the actual planning and we certainly have a specific governance instrument dedicated to entrepreneurship and encouraging that entrepreneurship and getting the next generation of think like entrepreneurs from from a very young age. So that's our approach and how we attack it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. He let me just, you use the word family bank and I think some of the people listening hurt will will hear that and say, What in the world is that so in it. You spend a second to talk about that, if you don't mind.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So it's, it's just a trust and and the trust has certain parameters as to when it will loan money to one of the family members for a business idea. It says four criteria that that the

 

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Shawn Barberis: Potential business needs to me. Fun things not fun things but impactful things like okay, you're gonna you're gonna

 

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Shawn Barberis: Donate 25% of your profits to fill in the blank charity and and things that are required from the family bank that again are consistent with the core values.

 

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Shawn Barberis: The family vision, so forth. So we integrate those into the documents we put some assets inside that trust that are available to belong to for entrepreneurial ideas that again are consistent with the term set forth in the document.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So, so that's it's, it's just a, it's just a trust that has specific language in it to encourage entrepreneurship, but responsible purposeful entrepreneurship.

 

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Shawn Barberis: And again, we talked a lot of that about we do a lot of work with the UN and the sustainable development goals and integrating that into their finances.

 

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Shawn Barberis: We don't manage the money we don't do any of the financial stuff no product or

 

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Shawn Barberis: Investments or anything along those lines. We just do the MDM 360 piece, but we spark that conversation so that their team of professional advisors can integrate that into their existing planning, as well as the entrepreneurship as well.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great. I remember the first time I heard the term family bank and just didn't make any sense. So I appreciate you kind of describing that

 

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Shawn Barberis: For

 

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Everybody here.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Yes.

 

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Tom Rogerson: First time one of the family members that I was working with in a family Chicago heard of the idea they

 

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Tom Rogerson: One of the cousins was complaining to his his his other cousin that

 

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Tom Rogerson: Gee, we need a hockey rink in this town. It'd be so much easier because you know though.

 

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Tom Rogerson: If you're a young kid on a hockey team, the ice time is usually a rink ABOUT THREE TOWNS away at five o'clock in the morning and he was like, we need a rink in this town of be so much easier.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And he said his cousin said that's a good investment in the yacht to bring into the family bank, and he said, What's the family bank. He says, well,

 

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Tom Rogerson: Grandpa set up this trust and Uncle Joe, he's the chairman of it and they're looking for investment that's an investment yet to bring them. So this little kid go see uncle Josias Uncle Joe, I think we had invested in this a hockey rink.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Uncle Joe says, Great idea. Where's your business plan and this 14 year old kid says, what's a business plan.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Exactly. That's exactly right.

 

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Shawn Barberis: That's exactly right.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And he paired that kid up with an uncle and on to write a business plan. So he they they were teaching to edge two generations. At the same time, how to write a business plan.

 

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Tom Rogerson: But he came back and he came to the family meeting givens presentation a financial rite of passage for 14 year old that family. How many families have a financial rite of passage for 14 year old.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And he decided not to invest in the hockey rink, because he heard other people talk about rate of return. He's like, rate of return. What's that, I just want to hockey rink.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And but it was a great lesson. What's interesting is that he was learning by doing, and and that's really the crux of when I say entrepreneurship. What's a nocturnal mentality entrepreneurs and people that tend to do

 

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Tom Rogerson: To learn mid level managers that seemed to never be able to rise in and get out of their way our people to to kneel feel like they need to learn

 

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Tom Rogerson: To be able to do so they get degrees and all. And they learn in a shaped environment. It's very hard to be entrepreneurial if you've learned in the shaped environment because entrepreneurship is very unshaped it's very

 

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Tom Rogerson: So how do you create an environment of doing to learn. And these are all examples of when I say, you know, creating an entrepreneurial mentality. How do you do that.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Most entrepreneurship programs in the country are not actually teaching entrepreneurship, they're teaching middle of a management of small companies.

 

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Tom Rogerson: You know, once you have an idea. How do you finance it and then how do you run it and how do you manage resources and how do you hire people and fire people. And then how do you have an exit strategy.

 

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Tom Rogerson: That small business, business management that's not entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is think of a circle with four parts to it with the middle donut.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And the four parts are the practice of play. Do I have a free and imaginative, mind you can teach these things. The practice of empathy.

 

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Tom Rogerson: If I get to the airport. There's a two hour line for security. Right. Just get in it and place it. Okay, I think that's a problem. And actually,

 

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Tom Rogerson: You know, and what do I see the problems in society. How do I look for those and see them and be more open minded about that. Thirdly, the practice of

 

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Tom Rogerson: Of creation, creating a solution to this problem that hopefully you've seen that, you know, in your friend. Imagine to mine.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then finally the or the fourth, one fourth corner of that is the practice of experimentation. Can I try and fail, is that okay and learn and try and fail and learn and try and fail or succeed.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And then the middle, middle of the doughnut is the practice of reflection. So we're constantly looking at those things.

 

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Tom Rogerson: If a family has that mentality about everything that they're embarking upon they are working and thinking very differently. Communicating differently, but they're in an environment of trust and

 

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Tom Rogerson: Relationship around group decision making. And that to me is, again, you started with major in the majors were ending with major, major That's major. In the majors and getting to the right place. Hopefully effectively.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. Thank you. Hey, we're, we're running out of time here. Any parting words from either of you that you'd like to share. And then if you would share how people can reach out and contact you if they if they would like to

 

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Shawn Barberis: Talk to Tom. Go ahead.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Sure, yeah. You can reach us at Jen leg co for generation a legacy company gen Lego je n Le G co.com that's our website.

 

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Tom Rogerson: I am Tom a Gen. Like, oh, my wife is Kathy with a see agenda Co. She's a relationship coach.

 

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Tom Rogerson: And so she is the one that I do the kind of big picture work and the education. She actually dives into how we going to get Johnny and Mary actually being able to communicate on the heart issues together one on one. And, and so that's how you reach us

 

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Tom Rogerson: Great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thank you. Thank you.

 

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Shawn Barberis: So for me it's Sean SH AWS at MTN just like that. There's a hyphen in between and then 360 MTM hyphen 360 Shawn at MTM 360 dot com phone numbers for 10928 7420 or 10928 7420. Thank you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I appreciate both your time this was great. Like I always say, I wish I could do, you know, three hours of this, but I don't think most people would want to sit down and listen to three hours of

 

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Shawn Barberis: Us participating. Appreciate it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Have a great day. Everybody got Tom

 

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Tom Rogerson: was just gonna say if anybody would like I spoke at heckerling this last January, and the paper I wrote to accompany the talk I can send it to people. So if you'd like a copy of that just email me and I'll send it to you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Beautiful. Thank you for joining us on the family business show today. We look forward to seeing you next week on the next episode. Have a great day, everybody.

 

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Shawn Barberis: Thank you, Michael.

 

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Tom Rogerson: Thanks Michael.


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