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Episode 22: Family is the Heart of Family Business

In the latest episode of "The Family Biz Show," hosted by Michael Palumbos of Family Wealth and Legacy in Rochester, New York, the focus was on understanding how family dynamics play a crucial role in family businesses. The episode featured insights from two experts, Thomasina Williams and Kathleen Wiseman, who discussed the concept of families as emotional systems within the context of family businesses.

Kathleen Wiseman shared her journey in understanding family systems and its impact on business decisions, illustrating how emotional processes within a family can influence even the most rational business decisions. She highlighted a case where a family business was influenced by the personal challenges of its members, demonstrating the interconnectedness of family dynamics and business operations.

Thomasina Williams spoke about her multifaceted career journey and how it led her to explore the significance of philanthropy in strengthening family bonds within wealthy families. She discussed the concept of the "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves" proverb and its relevance to her own family's experience with wealth and loss over generations.

The episode delved into Bowen Family Systems Theory, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how family members' actions and reactions are interconnected like a mobile, influencing each other in predictable and unpredictable ways. The discussion underscored the importance of self-awareness and managing one's reactivity to foster a healthier family business environment.

Listeners were encouraged to view their family members and business partners through a systemic lens, understanding that individual behaviors are part of a larger, interdependent system. By recognizing these dynamics, family business leaders can make more informed and thoughtful decisions, leading to more sustainable and resilient business practices.

The episode concluded with a generous offer from the guests, providing listeners the opportunity to explore their own family systems and their impact on their business through a 30-minute video call consultation.

This episode serves as a valuable resource for family business owners and members, offering deep insights into the intricate relationship between family dynamics and business success. It encourages listeners to adopt a systemic approach to understanding their family and business, fostering a healthier, more cohesive environment that supports both family unity and business growth.

Watch the entire episode!

Episode 22 Transcript


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Michael Palumbos: Well welcome everybody to the family biz show. My name is Michael Columbus with family wealth and legacy in Rochester, New York.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And we have an incredible show for you today we're going to be talking about how family is the heart of family business. And we're going to be

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thinking about that in the in the scope and the framework.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That families are an emotional system. But before we dig in, as we always do would like to introduce or whoever, our guests that are joining us. We have Thomas, you know, Williams and Kathleen Wiseman Welcome ladies. Appreciate you both being here.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Um, yeah.

 

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Michael Palumbos: What we like to do is, we call it your journey, you know, this whole idea of working with families or working with family on businesses.

 

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Michael Palumbos: There's today, there may be some degrees and there may be some much more college, you know, and university level, you know, thinking around that stuff, but typically for most of us, that, you know,

 

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Michael Palumbos: That wasn't available 2030 years ago. So what was your journey and how did you get to where you are today and give us a little bit of your background, Kathy, would you mind. Kicking us off.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: A high you're going with the older person.

 

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For

 

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kathleen Wiseman: A longer journey first

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Of course, a lot

 

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Michael Palumbos: More to it.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Let me give you that context, I was working in a consulting firm in Washington DC during labor management.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Change efforts after major strikes. So I was sitting in the middle of conflict for large corporations and their labor unions. And I was fascinated by it.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: But I decided to go back and get an MBA to understand kind of how that hip productive how conflict influence productivity.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And the bottom line and in business school. I didn't get the answers that I was hoping to. So I started studying at the bow and Center for the Study of the family.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Which is about how relationships impact your thinking decision making and its focus on family systems with Marie Bowen.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And while I was going through that class with my MBA under my arm and experience. I got a call from a colleague from Harvard who asked me to do a job.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: That I was really ill suited to do to go into a family business and find out why they hadn't accepted and mergers and acquisition offer from them.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And being so cocky that well I can do this. I went in and I made a huge series of mistakes that I've learned from for the last 30 years

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And that was really when I realized the importance of family behind the business decisions. This was a very profitable beltway banded

 

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kathleen Wiseman: With the best m&a offers and yet the family couldn't hit the Go button. So what was that about, and that has been the learning and from then on.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: I got interested learned and keep learning, but really focused on the family side, even though my backgrounds business. So that's the long circuitous route and

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Lately, where I find myself is an advising other advisors wealth advisors estates and trusts lawyers and other consultants as as a second chair to give people a wider view of what they're looking at.

 

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Michael Palumbos: How do

 

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Michael Palumbos: You avoid the mistakes that you made all those years ago.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Right and and I now have a pretty good sense of what emotional process. The Influencing between family members, how it can affect very good decision makers and so my effort now is working with other advisors and really being a second chair to them.

 

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Michael Palumbos: loving them.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So I can keep learning. So that's the old person's journey.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Is the young person's journey.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Or the quite, not quite as old person.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Yeah I resemble that remark I know that I looked 25 but I'm much older than that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: So I

 

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Thomasina Williams: Say that all the time.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Yes, so I though I may not look like it. I'm actually in my third career. I started out practicing law for nearly 20 years in Miami and

 

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Thomasina Williams: decided I wanted a completely different journey for myself. So I ended up moving to New York.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And working with one of the largest philanthropic foundations in the country.

 

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Thomasina Williams: It was a contract position I renewed for a second contract and decided I needed to do something yet different again, but I thought it would be related to philanthropy and was thinking actually about doing philanthropic advising with ultra

 

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Thomasina Williams: high net worth families. And in the course of doing my research, trying to figure out that arena. I came across the study that Williams and presser did around

 

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Thomasina Williams: How ultra high net worth families use philanthropy.

 

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Thomasina Williams: As a tool to strengthen their families as much as for the philanthropic cause and I was really intrigued by that I had always done my own philanthropy as a lawyer had worked with a number of family foundations.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And wealthy individuals when I was with the institutional Foundation, but I had never thought about how they might be using their interest in the particular cause to really advance their family.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And I was really intrigued by the height of intentionality and started researching that and that led me to the purposeful planning Institute, which is where you and I connected, Michael.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And discontinuing the research journey came to appreciate that. There's something called the shirt sleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations proverb.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And I thought, Oh my gosh, that is my family. My family has been through is is a living example of that. Proverb actually the wealth and my family was lost in the second generation.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Most of it was lost in the second generation. And then as I continue to study. I was trying to figure out how does one enter this field. How do you be a resource.

 

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Thomasina Williams: For families and having come from the practice of law were similar to the world of finance, it's regulated, there are certain courses, everybody has to take their continuing

 

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Thomasina Williams: Education courses are certain foundational work that everyone practicing this profession, what to do and I was trying to find that in this field, lo and behold, there is

 

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Thomasina Williams: That in this field. So I went on a journey to I joked to someone for a presentation I did for the purpose will planting Institute. This past summer.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That I feel as though I got a PhD independent study and how to be a resource for families. One of the most impactful. I would say one of the two most impactful.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Trainings i did was discovering bow and family systems theory I attended the training at the bow and center in DC, and that is where I met Kathy. Kathy is one of the instructors there and Kathy has

 

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Thomasina Williams: Her own practice training form that's called navigating systems. Anybody wants to check that out. The, the web address is navigating systems dc.com

 

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Thomasina Williams: And so I've been on that journey with Kathy, I think, am I on my four year cafe or something like that, in addition to

 

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Thomasina Williams: The year that I did at the bow and center. And I came to realize that with the combination of understanding the shirts and these two shirts least proverb.

 

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Thomasina Williams: About families losing their wealth over three generations and understanding families as emotional systems.

 

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Thomasina Williams: I really had this epiphany about what it happened in my own family that caused our loss of wealth and as a result of that my sort of

 

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Thomasina Williams: professional interests became more of a personal passion to really understand how to be a resource with for families.

 

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Thomasina Williams: To help not only my own family but client families as well because as we all know, our families are the bedrock of our societies.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And while people aren't as knowledgeable about the extent to which family businesses contribute to the economy family owned businesses or key cornerstone of economies globally, not just in the US.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And that is how I I am where I am today. I can't think of a better way to add value to be of service to my own family, as well as other families. But to do this work.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love it. Thank you. Yep. Both of you said something as you were introducing yourselves. I'm going to take us on a little bit of a

 

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Michael Palumbos: Just a journey is I want to hear a little bit more and then I want to dive in. Because I know we've got a lot new, this has been really great stuff that we're going to be talking about. I love talking about bowling theory.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, Kathy, you and I realized that we had a friend locally that we share that and I learned 95% of my bow in theory you know things from, you know, listening to him and then just finding books that you know he has suggested to the years

 

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Michael Palumbos: Kathy, you had said that early on in your career as they went to see the family business that there was mistakes that you made.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I find over and over again that people listen and hear the mistakes more clearly. Sometimes than the great advice to avoid the mistake. So you're going to be talking about the great advice to avoid the mistakes.

 

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Michael Palumbos: What were some of those mistakes, if you don't mind me asking early on in the career that you felt that, you know, looking back in hindsight, you might have done differently.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Um, well, thank you for listening that way because I agree with you. I think mistakes are the cutting edge of learning. I think, you know, you hear so many grand stories about families doing so well, but I think

 

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kathleen Wiseman: For me personally, reviewing my mistakes with with other trusted colleagues is an enormous way of learning. In fact, I'm doing a presentation tomorrow at FF I on mistakes. It's an ongoing thing I like to present on

 

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Michael Palumbos: Love for those that don't know, is the family firm Institute.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Right, I think, I think the first mistake is I had no roadmap. I had no theoretical theoretical basis for deciding what's important.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And when you don't have a theory, it can be both in theory, it can be whatever theory makes sense to you what what becomes important, is just

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Really a crapshoot with Bowen theory, I'm able to look at the functioning my own functioning and the functioning of the individuals really in in some kind of constructive way so that I had no roadmap.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So really,

 

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kathleen Wiseman: What I was working off of was I felt enormously pressured to be successful. This colleague from Harvard.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: I thought, well, if I do a good job for him. I'm in professionally. So I was professionally pressured

 

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kathleen Wiseman: To not think this through as carefully as I could. I was very influenced by wanting to do his good job.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And in fact, I lost myself in it and was not as a critical thinker. That was one thing. The second thing is there's always a person, a situation that seen as

 

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kathleen Wiseman: villainous the bad person. The trouble of person. And in fact, it's a system reflecting on one individual, but it's a system that is under pressure.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: That throws out an individual with an identifiable problem. I completely lost my systems focus and was and was tuned to a person

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And I know that when you find one person who's the problem you've lost your neutrality, you've lost your curiosity, you've lost your ability to help

 

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kathleen Wiseman: The family. See all the variables that are involved in this family. So it was very clearly, I was swayed by my relationship with the person who

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Made this referral. I had no roadmap. So I was kind of trading on my personality.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Not such a good help for family as charming as you can be. You're not helping them think and build capacity to solve a problem and I focused on a person who I saw as

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Misguided wrongheaded but in fact the system was under enormous pressure, which I could go into detail, but it is

 

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kathleen Wiseman: enormously valuable that see a system to see the dynamics over time and to watch the evolution of a family adjust to changes births and deaths, you know, going to college, illness, all of which changed the ability to think through problems so

 

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kathleen Wiseman: That's

 

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kathleen Wiseman: A shorthand version, but it was enormous. And when I get going. A mistakes Club. I'm going to invite you

 

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Michael Palumbos: Amen. Amen. I am the king of mistakes. I have made more mistakes than any other person that I ever point to at least that's how I feel sometimes

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I'm okay with that because I always learned. And so I've learned great amounts of data, but you didn't learn from, you know, you, you're very rarely learn from the successes, you know, he's

 

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Michael Palumbos: Been your knee. You put you in touch the oven. You know, it's hot Thomasina, you said

 

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Michael Palumbos: That your family, you know, was right in the midst of the church leaders shirtsleeves what was, what was it that happened for your family. If you do you mind sharing that the, you know, that was the bump in the road that the cause the shirtsleeves the shirtsleeves do you think

 

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Thomasina Williams: I would say, frankly, just a lack of awareness. I mean, I think in our society in general, people are so focused on accumulating wealth, a building the business of working hard, providing for your family for many people, is a question of financial

 

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Thomasina Williams: Resources and, you know, my grandparents. I live in Florida in the area where my grandparents owned substantial land. They were citrus groves and an area not too far from Disney World.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And accumulated quite a bit for a black family in the south in the 30s.

 

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Thomasina Williams: My grandmother purchase land in her own name in in the 30s and I don't know. Sometimes they purchase land together. Sometimes it was one, sometimes it was the other. I don't understand the history of it, but they were so focused on providing for their family.

 

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Thomasina Williams: I in the current Community, which I grew up my cousins all live my uncles and aunts, because my parents, my grandparents had so much land.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That one of their key gifts for their kids for their weddings was to give them a plot of land for their new home.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And so the whole community was my grandparents, my great my grandparents actually gave land to the city for what is to this day, the only park in the black part of town. It's a predominantly white community.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And there was no park so my grandparents provided a park so that kids, other than their grandkids would have a place to play.

 

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Thomasina Williams: They named the community after my grandparents, and again, very prominent work really hard and my grandfather. I can remember being in high school.

 

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Thomasina Williams: In high school, and talking to my grandfather about estate planning. What do I know about estate planning.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Kid in high school. I didn't know anything about estate planning, but I knew intuitively this because I was watching. There are going to be problems on a relationship level when my grandparents were no longer around

 

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Thomasina Williams: And my grandfather, you know, very traditionalist, the, the oldest child was a male he's deceased today may his soul, rest in peace.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And my grandfather's notion was that his job was to make as much money as possible to accumulate this vast array of resources.

 

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Thomasina Williams: To lay the foundation that would take care of his family for generations well beyond my generation.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And that once he was no longer in the picture, the mantle would pass

 

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Thomasina Williams: To my uncle, his oldest son to play that role of patriarch, to make sure that everyone was provided that they would get their equivalent proverbially of their plot of land as their foundation on which to build. Gosh. Well, it didn't quite work out like that.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And I couldn't. You know, again, I'm a kid. I'm in high school, I couldn't convince my grandfather and I had no knowledge of this world. I was, frankly, I had no knowledge of this world until a relatively few years ago.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And I think it's because people don't know that there's actually a profession that there are resources that there are structures and frameworks.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Like understanding your family as an emotional system that you need both that quantitative the financial side but just like when you're doing financial books you always have

 

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Thomasina Williams: That the counter balance. You need the financial assets, but you also have to pay attention to those family assets, you need to invest in your family.

 

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Thomasina Williams: The same way that you invest in growing your business and building your finances, because if you don't, the consequences are going to be that over time, you're going to lose both

 

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Thomasina Williams: You're going to lose the Family Resources and also those relationships are going to be damaged in the process. And that's something that nobody teaches us how to do

 

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Thomasina Williams: You know, it's very difficult to navigate the family relationship side of the ledger and because it's so challenging. Most people either think I find it's a spectrum. They either think

 

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Thomasina Williams: Oh, I don't need to worry about that. My, my son, my oldest son is going to take care of everybody, cuz he knows that's what I want.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And then you have people who say, well, I've tried everything. There is nothing that can be done my family's incorrigible

 

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Thomasina Williams: And everybody in between. And I think it's just because people don't have the tools they don't have the resources they don't have guides to help them.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Understand that there's plenty that you can do. It's a question I think of exposure. A lot of times. And then, of course, in addition to exposure, there has to be a willingness

 

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Thomasina Williams: There's got to be a commitment to doing that work. Some people are just afraid to go there, as it relates to relationships. But I think that's because

 

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Thomasina Williams: They feel like a fish out of water, so to speak, they don't know what to do. And once they find out that there is a way forward.

 

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Thomasina Williams: There at least is an interest in kind of dipping their toe in the water a little bit to explore because the reality is most everybody who I know will say I will do anything for my family. I had a client.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Situations.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Yeah, well,

 

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Thomasina Williams: Exactly. And that's where the willingness comes in, they'll say I'll do anything for my family. I had a client tell me, just a couple of weeks ago, I would give up this business in a heartbeat.

 

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Thomasina Williams: If it. I knew it was going to tear my family apart. And then we get into the question about how do you avoid having the business Terrier family apart.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And people have to do some reflecting, you know, you've got to be willing to go there. You've got to be willing to be vulnerable to look at yourself and your own role.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That's all good stuff. And I appreciate you, you, sharing. I want to dive into some of the meat behind the things that we talked about, because we've got a lot of great material.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Kathy, would you mind, you know, just kind of, what does it mean to talk about families, you know that as an emotional system.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I think this is this is kind of that framework that Thomasina was talking about is that there is, you know, if, once you understand the system.

 

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Michael Palumbos: A little bit. Then there's tools out there, you can start to work with them a little bit. Is that what you're what you're talking about. Can you go ahead and take it away. It's

 

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kathleen Wiseman: It's it's a way of thinking about yourself, your family in this world. So let me. I just want to give you this quote, which I found

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Which is, this is my way of understanding relationships. I want it. There are other ways. But for me, this has proved life giving, so here's this quote what happens when we have no maps no copies no landmarks we walk in circles. So for me this theory has given me a way to relate to my family.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And the troubles in it.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Relate to client families and to have a way of understanding families in a much different way. So let me see if I can give you

 

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kathleen Wiseman: A. As you know, this is this is a different language. So let me see if I could be very simple. And then you pick up on the points that's not clear.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So here I am an individual, but think of me as a one part of a mobile and you pull on one part, and the others all respond

 

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kathleen Wiseman: In other words, family members, act as responsive and inseparable part of the unit.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: We are highly responsive to each other, whether you have a daughter in New York and another one in Boulder, you are responding to them all the time and the family.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Is really the cauldron of or the day unit of inquiry. This theory says that human families function in predictable ways. In other words,

 

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kathleen Wiseman: When anxiety goes up. You can see predictable patterns happens in families. Some are more evident in some families, but there's predictable functioning when a family goes through anxiety.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: What causes anxiety, different from all kinds of people, but it can be a marriage a death, a great deal of money, a wealthy inheritance. It can be good or bad, but it dis it this

 

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kathleen Wiseman: I think it makes the status quo have to seek a new level of balance and in seeking often problems pop up between family members. This is knowable, so

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Human families function in predictable ways there's ways to learn that and that the functioning is that we are responding to each other.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: In natural ways, it follows the science of human systems, we are very we're not very far removed from other primates and we have a brain.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: But often, we operate much with much more reactivity than thought and Bowen theory postulates that if through study of your own family multi generationally and yourself you can manage the choice between reactivity.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Or calm state. So let me give you an example. I'm sitting here in Boulder. I've got kids all over the country. I get an email from a daughter who says my businesses in trouble.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And immediately I am activated my automatic response would be to call her up and give her suggestions. Let's do pros and cons.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: What kind of help. Is that not much. My goal is not to give her a content answer, but to interact with her to help her get thinking again.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So my call is substantially different from a reaction to a thought. And that is what

 

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kathleen Wiseman: I'm trying to do with families is to motivate them to the best thinking to solve their problem regarding the relationships and that's done with an understanding of the brain.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Anxiety really good questions that get you thinking in new ways. It is not me telling somebody else to do something. So to sum it up, it would be knowledge of family gives you a choice between automatic reaction.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And thought. And I love this quote you can't will have been to grow or you can't change anyone you can't you can't make a beam grow by pulling on it.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So the, the source of change is the individual self and their knowledge. I'm not trying to make anybody do anything that would be different than many consultants.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So it is me being the best thought partner with someone to stimulate their creative thinking that is bing, bing, bing family systems.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: How you implemented in this practice. So I'll leave it to you or Thomasina to pick up on that. What it is, it is really this we are all our families determines so much of the way we automatically respond and how we can then pull ourselves out to be a self and think

 

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Michael Palumbos: Sure, so

 

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Michael Palumbos: I know that was great. Thomas, I want to take this because

 

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Michael Palumbos: You like I say, I have a familiarity with Boeing theory but not everybody listening will have and Kathy, you know, you said it so perfectly. I love that that picture.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Of the immobile, you know, floating over the baby's head and when you pull on one elephant. The giraffe goes up. And if you pull on something else you know that that's the family. And it really is a lot like that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And as individuals in the family. We often react instead of respond and you talked about the brain so Thomasina

 

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Michael Palumbos: Do you mind picking up on that just talking about the two parts of the brain and how that you know how we react, you know, based on you know just where we go to um you know where I'm going with this. So I'll just let you take it.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Sure. I think what you're referring to is the neuroscience, which tells us that the back of our brain is the area that really developed first back in prehistoric days when the brains function was our physical safety.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Lions, tigers and bears are afterward.

 

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Thomasina Williams: You had you instinctively moved for literally your life right and the physical sense as our brains have evolved. Now they're pre for frontal cortex. The front part of our brain. We've come to realize is the thinking center.

 

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Thomasina Williams: If anyone's familiar with Daniel condiments work his book, Thinking, Fast thinking slow the amygdala area. The limbic brain.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Is the part that developed first and is the quick instinct in that reactivity that that Kathy referred to

 

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Thomasina Williams: You mentioned earlier, you know, making mistakes, putting your finger on that hot stove, you don't think about, oh, is this too hot, not quite hot enough. You just instinctively pull it away.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That is the fast bring the back of the brain. The limbic brain, the prefrontal cortex in the front part is the slow brain that's the thoughtful deliberate brain.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And as Kathy says we're closer to our animal friends than we'd like to admit

 

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Thomasina Williams: The reality is that most of and this is science. And I remember, depending on what steady you read is north of 75%

 

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Thomasina Williams: Some people say as much as 90 of our day to day decisions are just instinctive. We don't think about it. If you have ever

 

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Thomasina Williams: Been driving and you end up at home, driving between work in the days when we were physically going to places to work.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And you just end up there, you think, how did I get here like you weren't consciously, you're just kind of going through the motions. You just instinctively do this, this, that.

 

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Thomasina Williams: For the most part, that's not a challenge, but when it comes to relationships.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And our families being the people who are closest to us, you know, our families can set us off or trigger us in ways that somebody else might say the same thing. And we would dismiss it.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And so even though we don't have concerns. Most of us this day and age don't have concerns about our physical safety.

 

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Thomasina Williams: They're all kinds of other triggers like psychological and emotional safety within families like the need to control things

 

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Thomasina Williams: Particularly if you were a founder of a very successful business. You got that way because you were calling the shots.

 

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Thomasina Williams: So those kinds of issues are the things that tend to set us off and trigger us in this day and age, and another huge one is belonging

 

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Thomasina Williams: You know, we have one of the interesting things I love about understanding families as emotional systems and understanding bow in theory.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That offer something different. I think the other approaches is to understand the togetherness force that

 

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Thomasina Williams: Instinctively, we want to be a part of our families. We want to be close to our families, and at the same time, we want to start our independence.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And for our very survival our own functioning in the world. We need to assert our independence. If a mother never puts her baby down and it's a hold that baby.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Till the baby's up in years. The child never learns to walk. So this, there's this tension between how do I insert my assert my independence.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Learn about who I am in the world. What I like don't like what I will do won't do. And at the same time.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And close to my family members belong to this tribe and the tension that a lot of families end up trying to negotiate sometimes and not that successfully is what do you do when what I want for myself what who I want to be in the world is different than the rest of my family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, that's a

 

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Michael Palumbos: Really good point. I have a family that I serve my father served them before me, and he was with the founder and, you know, members of the family business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And there came a point when the daughter, said I, I need to do my own thing.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And that was it was tearing the founder, you know, Mom and Dad. They founded this business, and was tearing their heart. They're like that you're throwing our heart on the pavement and stomping on it is the way that we feel right now. And they, you know, they helped her to do it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: begrudgingly it took probably a good 10 years and, you know, before they started to realize, even though they member that you want to be part of the family, but you need to be separate. So they still were doing things together, but it was

 

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Michael Palumbos: It was very difficult and trying and it was really interesting. We did a family meeting, two years ago, and

 

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Michael Palumbos: There was a loan that was given to the daughter to start that business and you know I was just asking. Mom and Dad, you know, what do you think of how she's done

 

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Michael Palumbos: And they just went on and on raving about how proud they were of her for forging her own way and doing what she needed to do and that they understood today. What they didn't understand then that it wasn't

 

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Michael Palumbos: It wasn't mom and dad. It was her that needed to be different. And I said, Have you ever told her that

 

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Michael Palumbos: No. Nope. So, in the midst of the family meeting with two attorneys to accountants and you know my team and the whole entire family there. I said, Dad,

 

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Michael Palumbos: I think it's time that you share with your daughter, what you and I just talked about. He just started bawling and going through and telling her everything she's. It was just a beautiful moment when it allowed that response.

 

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Michael Palumbos: To finally happen rather than the reaction that was there 10 years ago right

 

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Thomasina Williams: And I think that what you that's a perfect example of how a consultant can be a resource for a family to share such a poignant moment.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That may not have happened otherwise. I think the young lady also is a great demonstration of being self defined

 

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Thomasina Williams: What in Bowen theory terminology is differentiating itself because there are lots of families. I've worked at a young woman comes immediately to mind who had a similar situation and felt guilty.

 

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Thomasina Williams: To the point that she stayed and worked in the family business, and was miserable absolutely miserable, so that, again, is attention. How do you stand in your own truth and still

 

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Thomasina Williams: still stay connected and and relationship with the family. It's also a testament to the parents that even though they did it grudgingly

 

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Thomasina Williams: At least they did support her on her journey that doesn't happen in all families. And I think part of the work of understanding your families and emotional system is to recognize that

 

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Thomasina Williams: We can do this thing. You know, we can allow one of my favorite quotes is the best thing that we can give our children is wings, so they can fly and roots so they stay grounded.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And

 

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Thomasina Williams: To me that is a lot of the work I I love you, I want you to do something different, but I'm going to support you in this journey because we all have to find our own way and still love you through it. Yeah.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Agreed. Kathy when we, you know, let's not let's take this we've given some framework around Bowen theory and the you know the reactivity versus responding and self, you know, identifying

 

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Michael Palumbos: Talk about this in the relationship of, you know, we, and we've done. We've hit a little bit on it but ownership and entry and exit in the business and family employment policies just can you expand on that a little bit further.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Um,

 

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kathleen Wiseman: All of those. Wow, they are business decisions have an emotional component so I'm

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Gonna let me give you a case. Let me see if I can do it succinctly. This is a family of the came with a problem. They were in the wine business. They had triplets, who were

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Have just they had their own careers and they've come together to be marketing distribution and production and they were having horrific fights and so they the family brought in a number of

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Mediators to try and solve it. If you would look at the total family system.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: You would see that the challenge those three triplets. Those triplets had and there were other siblings, not in the business had much more to do with the previous generation.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: The father had just left his job, his career as a wine distributor and had just been diagnosed with Alzheimer's, his wife, who was an attorney had just quit her job.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And they were wanting as we soon as when we went back a generation, the parents were really concerned about the father's losing capacity. So they started these this new business and encourage these three young women.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: To come in, they had all their own careers. And so these three young women came into the business and started fighting over all decisions. The real concern here.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Was that the parents had made a decision to help the father, who was going through this change in his life, starting a new business and rally his children and his wife around him.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: To for the next phase. That was the bigger picture, you could you could facilitate conflict resolution with those three from now until there are other 100

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Unless you're looking at the major picture of the relationships and what's happening to people. You're not solving for the right problem. So the conversation is much more between the parents and how are they going to deal with this new business in the midst of the Father's decline.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: What are they expecting with the decline. It was a conversation up a generation.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Those all of these decisions you're talking about that have to do with governance live in a context. They live in the history. They live in a relationship.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And without and observing and understanding that you're often solving for the wrong problem and

 

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kathleen Wiseman: I mean, I hope that was an explanation of unless you can look at the system and is what is going through and its history.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: The problem becomes one that's isolated and doesn't take into account the history and the relation prior relationships.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So once those mud that mother and father could talk about it. Why they brought the girls in then the decision making about marketing and responsibility and governance.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: gets put in a whole different light because the purpose of the business is really to keep the father functional for a longer period of time or so they believe so. I think that it widen this theory widens your frame focusing on human family relationships widens your frame and

 

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kathleen Wiseman: It is an a remarkable thing. All those conflict people resolution people very skilled long, you know, long experience, they just work at the wrong problem.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So any of those administrative decisions need to be seen in context and in the context of the relationship system in which they're founded

 

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Michael Palumbos: So let me just ask a follow up to that when we start talking about you know when you're when you're working with a family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Okay, multi generational family business, getting ready to go through these things.

 

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Michael Palumbos: How are you mapping out and how are you getting them to think about themselves as a system. What are the, what are the questions. What are the things that we need to be focusing on ourselves that we might be able to, you know, start to really see through these things differently.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: A fat complete family multi generational diagram with really, really good questions. That's where the hard work is in the preparation of

 

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kathleen Wiseman: It's asking the question that doesn't have a leading answer. It's an open curiosity of doing a multi generational family diagram.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And also looking at a timeline. If you do a timeline of critical events, both positive and negative and ask people to reflect on what was happening in the business and the family.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Might those connect for you in what ways would they connect what you know when when we did the timeline and and we saw the diagnosis and the mother leaving within a month of each other.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: You can ask the question, honestly, what might that correlation be between that and the startup of the business. Oh.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: It's the questions that takes so much time because if I went in there with an answer to it. My questions would be more skewed and have an edge to them it is it this theory.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And I feel like this. This has been my way to deal with it but provides a map for curiosity.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And a map to really think through the forces that we're all up against as life goes on and a business goes on.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: So family diagram timeline with critical events and the connection between the two. And then some people will get. Oh, maybe that's connected then you ask, well, how did the daughters get invited in. Well, they didn't really get invited in.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: We gave them such large salary. Oh, what is that something you want to continue, which is a kind of pay policy that reflects the state of the family. Well, I don't think so you can begin to build with questions.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I love it. So when you're, you know, when you have that timeline and you're mapping the you know the good and the the good and bad events throughout somebody's lifetime.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Right. What you do is think about that for a second, see if I got this. So now we've got that reptilian brain.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I hit a wall 30 years ago and it hurts and I made a mistake and I never thought through it. I never self actualize

 

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Michael Palumbos: What was going on and what I was feeling and now 30 years later, something happens within the family. My kids do something and my reaction didn't have anything to do with the kids or the business or why I was doing it mystical back to 30 years ago. Is that correct,

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Bingo. But what is that they do insurance they touch your nose when you're right you're you're spot on. And people will come to this, if it's framed

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And it's not leading you're not leading for an answer. You are genuinely curious because both the highs and the lows sync with the business in the family and you can watch that pretty carefully.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: In my experience,

 

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Michael Palumbos: Interesting. My, my father went through John's our friend john angles training.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Really, I have not long story, but so like dad was was part of the process was to sit down with me.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And and kind of unwrap some things and what you don't know is my biological father died when I was five, Marty. My father married my mom and my biological father was an alcoholic and my, you know, my father, you know,

 

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Michael Palumbos: Emotional sometimes was reactive. How's that that will you. That's it. What again nothing horrible, but just reactive

 

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Michael Palumbos: Yeah, and so and so what he said to me was based on you know that conversation. He goes, You my son have to deal with the sins of two fathers

 

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Michael Palumbos: And that was both a real you know it was a huge relief to sit back and allow myself the time to say it's not just me. I grew up.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Biologically and genetically and, you know, in the household of the, you know, Marty. And you put those pieces together and allow me to take time to go back and reflect and say,

 

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Michael Palumbos: And then, you know, to look at some of my behaviors and say how much of that. Did I inherit and how much of that, did I learn and how do I unpack and unravel some of the things that I'm not so loving about you know those things. I love it. Hey, this is, this is great helpful.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Well, you have a lot of good resources in that area. I'm a lot of them that are colleagues have Thomas in their mind and

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And John's courses. Excellent. So, you know, how do you learn. I keep learning all the time about leadership and about

 

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kathleen Wiseman: tension and conflict and and what can one do to sit in the middle of it. So I think if you're interested in relationships and business. It provides lifelong learning and curiosity. And I think that's been

 

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kathleen Wiseman: A real gift of knowing this theory agreed.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Leaders or learners is

 

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Michael Palumbos: Right. Love that love that Thomas, you know, when we're talking about, you know,

 

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Michael Palumbos: You're the leader of the business, you know, and you're the current generation, you know, what are some of the things that leaders can do

 

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Michael Palumbos: To strengthen their leadership and to even take it to another level. You know, so that they're taking these tools and the systems and being able to put them together. What are some of the ways that

 

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Michael Palumbos: You would be talking to leaders of businesses that they should be thinking about, I guess.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Well, one of the things that I love about blowing family systems theory is that the way that you learn the theory is to live it, and that it's not simply a

 

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Thomasina Williams: tool in your proverbial toolbox or an exercise that you bring out at family meetings, you really have to

 

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Thomasina Williams: Own it and I think of it as a as a way of being really it's a state of being to be first of all aware, self aware to be observant.

 

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Thomasina Williams: How am I interacting with my family members with my employees, what could I have done differently in a situation that didn't turn out the way in which I thought it should have or would have liked for it to

 

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Thomasina Williams: I think one of our natural tendencies as human beings is to always think it's the other person's fault.

 

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Thomasina Williams: You know, usually when clients come, whether it be the the the incumbent generation, who's running the business.

 

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Thomasina Williams: They may want their kids to do something differently or their spouse to do something differently if so and so would just do this or would just do that.

 

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Thomasina Williams: By the same token, the next generation if mom would just give me a chance to show what I can do, if mom or dad would just do that rather than thinking about what is it that I can do.

 

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Thomasina Williams: To make this situation, different because of the fact that families are systems, one of the characteristics of a system like the mobile example that you're talking about earlier.

 

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Thomasina Williams: If there's a change in one part of that system. There will, by definition, be a change in other parts of the system.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Sometimes those changes come like tsunamis. Sometimes they're just ripples across the pond. Sometimes they're very quick.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And immediate and apparent. Sometimes they take longer, and are kind of below the surface. So I would say that the most important thing that someone can do as a leader to strengthen their leadership.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Is to be observant of their own behavior and what it is that they can do differently to be accountable and responsible for being the change literally that they want to see.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Being able to manage your own reactivity is critical. And the way that you do that is figuring out what what is it that triggers me

 

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Thomasina Williams: I know I have specific triggers that I when they come up. I was like, okay, we don't want to go there.

 

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Thomasina Williams: But that comes from again studying yourself studying others and looking broadly at the system.

 

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Thomasina Williams: As Kathy was saying. We also have a tendency to look at things in isolation to say that that so and so's a problem child or a problem employee without understanding the broader context.

 

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Thomasina Williams: The broader context in which whatever is happening is evolving so the extent to which you as a leader.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Can learn to train yourself to see the system to see what's going on at a bigger picture and to connect dots. One of the favorite ways. I like to introduce this concept to families is by talking about the concept of triangles I

 

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Michael Palumbos: I apologize. I was going to make sure that we talked about. That was my next. I was like, there's, there's a gift. We can give people right now. So people listen up closely Thomas seen is going to walk through something that I just think is brilliant. And, you know, as, as I learned this.

 

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Michael Palumbos: It's been one of the most powerful tools that I've learned in dealing with my family. So take it away. Thomas. Thank you.

 

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Thomasina Williams: What bow in theory, said Dr. Bowen says that the most stable relationship system is at least a three person system.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That, by definition, they're going to be conflict. I don't care how loving or how close you are at some point you're going to have a difference of opinion about something.

 

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Thomasina Williams: When that difference is very strong and there's tension between two parties. Let's say it's between a spouse.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Two spouses who co own a business if there's a lot of tension between those those spouses.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Oftentimes, if people haven't trained themselves to be less reactive to try to stay in that thinking mode, they

 

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Thomasina Williams: Allow that anxiety to build up such that they've got to dissipate it someplace. So they bring in a third person that might be your child.

 

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Thomasina Williams: It might be a key employee. It could even be a consultant consultants get caught up in triangles, all the time.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And triangles are not, by definition, good or bad, it's how you use them. So when there's anxiety between two people.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Rather than those two people working on resolving their difference they want or more of them tries to bring in a third person to enlist that person to their side.

 

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Thomasina Williams: I have an illustration of just this the other day I was talking with a group of four adult children.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Some of whom work in the business, some of whom don't. There is one daughter and three young men three sons, the oldest son is concerned, I'm talking

 

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Thomasina Williams: As a consultant with just the adult children at the end of the meeting the older son says, Well, what do we do Thomasina

 

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Thomasina Williams: Because as soon as we walk out here mom is going to call my sister and ask her for a blow by blow of what happened in this meeting, who said what

 

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Thomasina Williams: And I've seen it before my sister and she may not intend to do this, but she's going to misinterpret something that was said she's going to get it wrong. And it's going to be a whole big blowup. What do we do then.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And this was my first meeting with this group of children, I simply turned around. Of course, this was back when we could actually have the in person meetings and I drew on a flip chart.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Just a diagram that you have the mother as one point of the triangle, the daughter as another point of the triangle and the three sons were the third point

 

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Thomasina Williams: And what was happening is because the mother was so aligned with the daughter, the mother would communicate with or try to understand what was going on with her son's by talking to the daughter, rather than talking to the sons directly

 

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Thomasina Williams: So that the the fix if you will or the way for them to handle. That is to say, the daughter could easily say well, Mom.

 

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Thomasina Williams: I know you want to know what's hat. What happened in the meeting and I think people want to talk to you about that.

 

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Thomasina Williams: One of the things we learned about is this concept of triangles and being responsible for what it is that we think and

 

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Thomasina Williams: To also be in a situation where there's a conflict, trying to figure out how can we work that together. So I'm happy to share with you what I think.

 

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Thomasina Williams: But I'm not going to speak for my brothers, because I may not totally get what they think, or my may have misinterpreted or my filter may be different.

 

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Thomasina Williams: But I'm certain that they're happy to talk with you about that. And so what the person does who's been brought in between these other two forces.

 

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Thomasina Williams: They stay in relationship. I still want to talk to my mom, I'm happy to share with you what I think. And what happened, from my perspective,

 

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Thomasina Williams: She also is in relationship with her brothers, but as encouraging the mother and the brothers to be in communication with each other.

 

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Thomasina Williams: So there's a role for everybody to play. There's no blame, there's no shame, there simply how do we reframe this in a way that we can figure out how to be in better relationship with each other.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And Kathy talked about, you know, mapping out your family basically using what we call a family diagram is a sophisticated family tree.

 

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Thomasina Williams: If you simply write on a piece of paper, your family tree, you can begin to map the emotional relationships, you can identify the triangles. I certainly can tell you the triangles in my family that I didn't

 

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Thomasina Williams: I knew existed on an intellectual level, but there's something about putting it on a piece of paper.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And being able to look at it and you can see the anxiety and the tension move through out the family. So that's one of the things that a founder or incumbent generation, someone who's running a business can do sit down and think about

 

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Thomasina Williams: In what situations. Am I not having conversations that I really know. I should have that I'd like to have. But I don't know how to

 

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Thomasina Williams: And who else am I bringing into that. How can I figure out how to be in a in a different relationship with those folks.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And some times the anxiety really is more on us than the other people you know will say that the daughter says, Well, I don't want to tell my mom. No, because I don't want to hurt my mom's feelings.

 

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Thomasina Williams: And it's not so much hurting the moms feelings is the daughter, not wanting to sit with her own discomfort not willing to be vulnerable enough to say, Mom, I love you. I want to share with you, but I really think that you should talk directly to my brothers. Sure.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And inside of a business, an employee comes you and says they've got a problem with john

 

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Michael Palumbos: And instead of you sending them back and say, You really need to go back and talk to john about that. And so the john understands what's going on, which makes them more emotionally mature.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You turn around and say hey john. Do you know what Pete said about it and it's so simple. When you see it that way, I again, I go back to the mistake because I can, I can only tell you that I might have triangle, the few several thousand

 

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Michael Palumbos: Times on wake

 

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Michael Palumbos: This summer I did it the right way. My son had a problem with my wife. And since it's a second marriage. He didn't feel it was his place. He's like, Dad. And I'm I pulled him aside and I said, look at

 

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Michael Palumbos: This is this is time for you to go and take care of this one, you have a problem with your step mom.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You need to go and take her side, you know, and talk to her about it. He was like, I can't do it right now. I said, that's totally okay. You do it when you can

 

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Michael Palumbos: An hour later he comes up to me and says, Dad, I just want to say there's the best advice you ever gave me. He goes, we have a stronger relationship because I was able to have that conversation with her instead of you having it with her. That was great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Oh right, that's, you know, those are the things where you when they happen. You just kind of love them. Ladies, we could do this for another three or four hours. I think because I I love having these conversations. But I asked for a couple of things.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Books. Is there a book or two that you would recommend for the audience as they're listening to say they wanted to start looking into this stuff. What are your favorite books that you might, you know, have them take a look at

 

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Great question.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: It if if this if this intrigues you at a higher intellectual level, I would go directly to Dr. Murray Bowens family evaluation, it's it's it's

 

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kathleen Wiseman: More meaty it's more theoretical, there are a number of books that are more

 

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kathleen Wiseman: That are easier. One is Dr. Roberta Gilbert's understanding organizations.

 

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Michael Palumbos: She has an ethical to doesn't she

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Has leadership.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: And my career as

 

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kathleen Wiseman: The mystery has a new book, who worked with Dr. Kerr, the mystery of families that I like a lot. Um, there's, there's tons and as

 

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kathleen Wiseman: I'm happy to think through and get you kind of have a more

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Understandable list for people. There's wonderful videos on the bone archives, the Murray bone archives website of Dr. Bowen.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: They're a bit grainy, but understanding how the family, the individual, the family society fits together, especially in this time of such unrest.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: looks at how they all feed each other. So, and there's, um, what Thomas, you did you want to mention what you think. And then our offer for people

 

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Thomasina Williams: Sure. So I did make a list. So I wouldn't forget because I thought you might ask this question, the Roberta Gilbert book you're thinking of, I think, is the one that's called extraordinary relationship.

 

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That's

 

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Thomasina Williams: Another book, a colleague and partner of Kathy's Andrea Cheryl has a book called you're mindful compass.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That's great to Kathleen Smith is a bow and practitioner on the faculty of the bow and center. She has a book called everything isn't terrible

 

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Thomasina Williams: Dr Kurz recent book of Bowen theory secrets is one that people might want to take a look at and then another book that is based on Bowen theory that

 

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Thomasina Williams: I would recommend people take a look at is resilient leadership.

 

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Thomasina Williams: By bob do then d u Ji Ji n

 

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Thomasina Williams: That's my current list.

 

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Thomasina Williams: One of the things about this field. There's not a lot of books out there, frankly, that's not a terribly long list. It's that really accessible but I hope totally endorse Kathy's looking at the Boing Boing archives. Also the bow and center.org

 

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Thomasina Williams: For the D in front of it, the bowling center.org

 

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Thomasina Williams: Has a

 

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Thomasina Williams: Store, where people can buy videos and and books and things like that. They have a YouTube channel also

 

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Thomasina Williams: Family Matters where people like Kathy and other faculty at the bow and center are interviewed on specific topics that people might want to take a look at

 

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Thomasina Williams: And then, of course, navigating systems dc.com Kathy's website. They also have articles, blog posts and videos that I think would be a great resource.

 

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Thomasina Williams: The other thing I should mention too is that the bow and center actually are a network of centers around the country and actually a couple globally so people may want to take a look at that resource.

 

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Thomasina Williams: On the bow and Center site to figure out where the other centers are like this one in Chicago. I think one in the Connecticut, New Jersey area.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: For you, Chicago

 

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Yeah.

 

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Thomasina Williams: There are resources out there that are available for

 

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Thomasina Williams: People and of course they're always free to reach out to me or Kathy.

 

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Thomasina Williams: One of the things that we want it to do because we recognize this is a different way of thinking about your family to think about systems and context rather than thinking about things in isolation.

 

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Thomasina Williams: To think about emotionality being reactivity biologically as opposed to just feelings like, you know, sad joy.

 

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Thomasina Williams: That kind of thing we wanted to offer to your listeners. If anyone is interested in going a little bit deeper into this work we've been working on a framework as a way of helping families understand

 

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Thomasina Williams: The pieces of the work, if you will, and creating kind of a blueprint for themselves about how to take on this issue. So we wanted to offer.

 

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Thomasina Williams: A 30 minute video call with any of your listeners who might be interested in wanting to go a little bit deeper and understand more about how they might move forward in understanding their family as a family system.

 

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Thomasina Williams: The way to take advantage of that is to simply reach out to us by email my email address is T H Williams.

 

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Thomasina Williams: At San culpa legacy advisors for those who are watching by video that's the name on the wall behind me as a and K or F a legacy advisors with an o.com and then Kathy. Kathy his email address, Kathy at working systems inc.net

 

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Michael Palumbos: Perfect.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Of course you can also reach out to us by LinkedIn to that's an easier way for you to do it. And my website sankofa legacy advisors com is also assessments and I'm in the process of actually developing a new one and then

 

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Thomasina Williams: Kathy's of, I guess, current primary website is navigating systems DC calm right wonderful

 

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Michael Palumbos: I can't say thank you enough. This was wonderful. I this is just one of my favorite topics to talk about because I see it within my own family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And this was the first year we did a family meeting where we opened up the doors to this conversation. So I'm pretty excited to

 

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Michael Palumbos: Share some of these things. I'm going to take this recording and make sure that my, you know, share it with my family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: But thank you both for joining us. Really, really appreciate your time and for sharing. My name is Michael Columbus. This has been the family business show

 

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Michael Palumbos: With family with wealth and legacy in Rochester, New York, and make sure you check us out, you know, you can find family welcome legacy on LinkedIn and

 

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Michael Palumbos: Facebook. And I think we even have an Instagram now. I think that's the producer made us get Instagram and Twitter so that you can follow the show and see announcements and whatnot as new shows or, you know, put out there. Thank you for joining us.

 

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Everyone

 

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Michael Palumbos: Have a great week.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Thank you. This has been this has been a lot of fun. All the best to you and your audience with

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Our surrogate sincere and who's the other one I

 

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Michael Palumbos: Hope and Megan.

 

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kathleen Wiseman: Goodbye.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Bye. Bye. Thanks, Michael.

 

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Thomasina Williams: Thanks. Bye bye.

If you’re a family business or a family business consultant and want to be on the show, share your story and help other family businesses, send us an email to producer@thefamilybizshow.com or fill out a contact form here!

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