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Episode 41: Recycling & Reinventing in the Family Business

In a fascinating episode of the Family Biz Show, host Michael Palumbos delves into the world of recycling and family business with the Shine family from Manitoba Corporation. The episode unfolds the family's rich history in the recycling industry, beginning with Brian Shine's acknowledgment of his early involvement in the family business at 15 and his passion for the industry.

Richard Shine shares a captivating narrative of his transition from an Air Force pilot to leading the family business, highlighting a pivotal moment when he saw jet engine parts in the family's scrap yard, sparking his interest in the business. This shift not only exemplifies personal transformation but also underscores the adaptability essential in family businesses.

Adam Shine, representing a newer generation, brings a fresh perspective by discussing his journey from the software industry to the family's recycling business. His story emphasizes the importance of adapting and finding one's niche within a family enterprise.

The episode also sheds light on the challenges and pivotal moments the family business faced, such as adopting new technologies and strategic pivoting when necessary. The Shine family's ability to evolve while maintaining their core values of integrity and quality service is a testament to the enduring success of family businesses in dynamic industries.

This episode not only provides insights into the Shine family's business journey but also offers valuable lessons on innovation, adaptation, and the significance of family values in sustaining a business across generations.

Episode 41 Transcript


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Michael Palumbos: Welcome everybody to the family biz show I am your host Michael Columbus from family wealth and legacy in Rochester New York.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Welcome, and thanks for joining us today we have a great show for you today we're talking about recycling and reinventing in the family business, and we are blessed to be joined by the shine family Brian Adam and Richard and welcome gentlemen.

 

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Brian Shine: Thank you, thank you, Michael.

 

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Adam Shine: yeah thanks for having us.

 

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Michael Palumbos: One of the things that I wanted to just start off with is we typically do like a just a quick in a quick overview of how you entered the family business What was your route to getting into the family business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, joining a family business isn't for everybody, for those of us that do find joy in working together, and you know spending the time you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: In in battle in business together, I think it's you know it's a pretty special thing, and so I just.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, if we want to go around the Horn Richard i'll start with you, what did what did you do before the family business or did you immediately jump into the family business right from the get go kind of give us a little bit about that.

 

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Richard Shine: Actually, I did not.

 

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Richard Shine: I I had no desire whatsoever to join the family business the family business at that time consisted of about three employees and with a 15 year old truck driving around Western New York within 10 miles of Western Europe picking up scrap metal.

 

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Richard Shine: primarily from industrial plants, but it was not something I had any interest in.

 

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Richard Shine: So in college, I went through the rotc Program.

 

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Richard Shine: got commissioned to second lieutenant the air force went to pilot training for a year.

 

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Richard Shine: then spent the next five years, flying airplanes around the world, including my final tour, which was one year in Vietnam, so my plan was to be an airline pilot.

 

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Richard Shine: seemed like a natural thing for me the problem, though, was that I had a commitment to the air force of six years, I could not get out.

 

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Richard Shine: Before my six years were up by the time that happened they had hired so many guys ahead of me.

 

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Richard Shine: That I knew that the airlines are all based on seniority it has nothing to do with your ability, when the guy in front of you.

 

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Richard Shine: Either dies or moves up you move up one seat so and i've been flying for engine jets around the world, cargo airplanes didn't really want to be a flight engineer, which, I might have been able to do and I didn't work much for.

 

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Richard Shine: My family as a kid there really wasn't much for a young person to do back then.

 

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Richard Shine: But I went down because I started to fill out airline and applications, I could see what was going on, I went down, and I saw these jet engine parts laying around the back in those days they had.

 

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Richard Shine: An account it was curtis Wright and buffalo there are long gone, but they were building jet pilots under contract to Pratt and Whitney so I got excited when I saw these jet engine parts and the rest is history i've been here over 50 years.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, sometimes it's just that little thread a connection that brings us together right for.

 

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Michael Palumbos: example.

 

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Richard Shine: And it's been a good ride, I mean there were days when I drive by the airport on my way to work.

 

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Richard Shine: When things, maybe weren't going so good at work or the company when I think boy sure, be a whole lot easier, you know to be an airline pilot than to be running your own scrap recycling company you'd have a heck of a lot less problems.

 

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Richard Shine: But it's worked out great and in the long run i'm very happy.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great Thank you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Brian.

 

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Brian Shine: yeah so so my story is more than that, I did grow up working in the family business I started at age 15 and the nice thing for me is that I don't know if we're supposed to say 15 year olds were working, but that was a long time ago, so so it probably okay any case.

 

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Brian Shine: It was nice for me, we are 106 years and in business i'm fourth generation as as Adam we started my great grandfather started the business.

 

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Brian Shine: When I started working in the in the summer 15 you know 13 years of age.

 

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Brian Shine: I immediately loved the business I love everything about it, I love the fact that we were preparing materials to go on to be melted I loved the citation the.

 

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Brian Shine: The people, is what I really loved and the nice thing for me is, I never once felt a minute of pressure to come into the family business, and in fact my dad was very.

 

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Brian Shine: You know you go do what makes you happy and, and this is what made me happy, so all through high school all through college and worked every every summer every break and.

 

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Brian Shine: continue to enjoy the business, I saw from a very early age that there's no shortage of challenges, but but also opportunities, and so I graduated College on a Saturday and literally started working on Monday in the business, so I was hooked Nice.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thank you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: dad.

 

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Adam Shine: yeah so.

 

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Adam Shine: i'm sort of like my father in the respects that I never planned on getting into the family business, it was not something that.

 

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Adam Shine: Really ever crossed my mind obviously growing up, I I knew what the family, did I was interested in it, and I remember times my dad coming home and being very stressed out and.

 

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Adam Shine: saying you know things weren't weren't going great at the office and then other times they would go great, and you know that was all back when.

 

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Adam Shine: Think copper was 80 cents a pound or less you know now we're seeing copper much, much higher but, for me, my path was I graduated college I ended up getting a job with a software company locally here in buffalo and you know I started out with them and sort of rolled up my sleeves and.

 

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Adam Shine: Did pretty well and carved out a pretty successful career in software, I really enjoyed what I was doing and.

 

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Adam Shine: Ultimately, the company changed hands and the new owner really in a lot of ways, both the new owner and the Vice President of the company were great mentors to me and brought me along and, ultimately, I got offered a sales manager position, but it was.

 

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Adam Shine: incumbent upon me moving to.

 

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Adam Shine: allentown PA if I wanted the position at the time I was in a pretty serious relationship I don't believe I was.

 

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Adam Shine: engaged at that point, but my dad sort of said to me hey i'm not going to be in the business forever turns out that he will be but i'm not going to be in the business forever.

 

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Adam Shine: How do you feel about you know joining your brother in the in the business and I, I really thought to myself.

 

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Adam Shine: wow not something i'd considered it kind of came out of left field and I I gave it some consideration and I thought you know, this is really.

 

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Adam Shine: The best opportunity to try to you know make something you know work for yourself and try to really be proud and prideful and what you do and and really at the end of the day, you have the ultimate ability to sort of create your path and make things happen so.

 

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Adam Shine: I did I joined the business and one of the first things that I did when I joined the business was got involved in a joint venture that we had.

 

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Adam Shine: With a company called Sun King in Rochester New York and I don't you know sort of like one of the first things my dad did when he came into the business was he saw.

 

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Adam Shine: airplane scrap and that was kind of he realized that that was kind of his hook well like Likewise, I saw electronic scrap and sort of.

 

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Adam Shine: found that enjoyable because I had come from the software world so that was one of the first things I did was I got more involved in a joint venture that we had with an electronics recycling company and now it's it's been I think 12 going on 13 years so it's.

 

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Adam Shine: it's been great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Beautiful appreciate it good.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yeah um I one of the things that I, you know when we spoke before is just the history of the company, I don't want to, and I want to hit every single aspect, but one of the things that just really I think resonates is.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know how did the company start wearing you know get it, how did it get its formation What did it do prior to what you're doing today, and you know what did that look like who wants to who wants to tackle that.

 

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Richard Shine: Guy should I start yeah and then, if you guys want to add anything feel free to jump in.

 

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Richard Shine: It actually started with my grandfather my son's great grandfather who emigrated from Russia or Poland, they weren't really sure where the borders were back in those days, and he came to the United States.

 

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Richard Shine: with very little education, no real money and couldn't speak the language so.

 

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Richard Shine: There wasn't a lot of jobs available to him.

 

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Richard Shine: He was part of the Jewish community and was very common for people in his situation to get into what we call paddling in those days, he was a peddler.

 

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Richard Shine: He had a Porsche car and he went around the neighborhood collecting rags wastepaper in a little bit of model in this push cart which he would take to a more established.

 

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Richard Shine: Immigrant basically that had been there longer.

 

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Richard Shine: And had established.

 

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an actual company.

 

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Richard Shine: He worked like a dog eventually he made enough money to be able to buy a horse and wagon.

 

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Richard Shine: And he was able to carry a lot more material, so he started to make some more money, eventually, he was able to afford to buy a shop that's what they call them back then, and the shop was successful.

 

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Richard Shine: And they eventually got a bigger place and they became one of the largest wholesalers in the country for rags and wastepaper.

 

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Richard Shine: Not so much in metals and very successful business successful company.

 

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Richard Shine: They sent my dad to the University of buffalo law school, he was our first one in our family to graduate from college, but unfortunately for him, he graduated from law school in 1932 right in the heart of the depression, so there were.

 

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Richard Shine: There he couldn't really make a living practicing law.

 

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Richard Shine: So he went into his family's business his father and his brother and like I said they build up a very successful wholesale REG recycling and paper recycling company.

 

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Richard Shine: The problem was that as World War Two came around they developed all these synthetic fibers that were not recyclable like nylon background ran that type of thing.

 

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Richard Shine: So that business started to decline and they.

 

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Richard Shine: saw the handwriting on the wall, my father wanted to get more involved in metals my uncle did not.

 

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Richard Shine: So they ended up splitting and my dad ended up bringing a fellow named Joseph baker in the business because.

 

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Richard Shine: I had to express no interest in coming in, and this gentleman Joseph baker was somewhere between my age and my father's age and.

 

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Richard Shine: He would be the transition if I ever did decide to come into the company, so they concentrated on the metals and you know that was in the mid 1950s, and here we are.

 

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Michael Palumbos: awesome so you guys had a huge giant pivot before pivots were talked about right, you know today Everybody talks about how they pivoted in the last 20 you know 1824 months now, you were pivoting well before your time.

 

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Michael Palumbos: that's great now I appreciate that one of the things that I think that's important.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Out of that is making sure you know it sounds like you said you called it, they watch the writing on the wall, they saw the writing on the wall and you know when we're talking to family businesses.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, we have so many examples you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Eastman Kodak, for example, and there's other examples, whether they be in buffalo or Syracuse where people didn't pivot you know the the companies didn't make those changes because they stopped looking at the writing on the wall so good, on your grandfather and then great grandfather.

 

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Michael Palumbos: grandfather and father, for you know, making making those those pivots do Brian or Adam do either one either one of you want to add something to you know company history.

 

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Brian Shine: Well, from the perspective that you're you're right part of the need to to continue being an entrepreneur within you're an entrepreneur within your enterprise family business.

 

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Brian Shine: Is is dictated by writing on the wall for sure, but part of it's also strategic and looking.

 

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Brian Shine: at different ways of operating and you know really credit to to all the shines before us and, hopefully, Adam and I can continue this but.

 

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Brian Shine: we've taken many steps along the way, and learned many lessons from from people around us, including our our customers have taught us a lot, for example in the copper business which we've been dedicated and focused and narrow niche.

 

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Brian Shine: Developing the reputation and expertise around.

 

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Brian Shine: there's an element to our business in protecting and mitigating the risk it's a tool, known as hedging and we were supplying copper to a facility that 45 years ago the purchasing agent said to.

 

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Brian Shine: My father, you will or you won't you will learn how to hedge the product or you won't be our supplier and the reason he said that is because.

 

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Brian Shine: In the old days, it was the old axiom of buy low and sell high as an example and.

 

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Brian Shine: And the consumer of this didn't want to hear you know the markets too low, or I don't have it.

 

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Brian Shine: They needed to be supplied whenever they needed the product, regardless of market, they weren't trying to outguess the market, they were trying to to fill their their needs, and so they needed a supplier that.

 

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Brian Shine: understood that, and similarly buying it, and so, and then the market condition so so we've learned a lot from our customers, but we've also.

 

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Brian Shine: Developed strategies to help grow the business in in sometimes in non core ways meaning within the recycling industry but, for example, we partnered.

 

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Brian Shine: and have now a 26 year partnership with somebody that back in those days was a competitor.

 

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Brian Shine: And my dad and and this gentleman started talking at at an industry meeting and said just kind of be wasted, we were you know could work together and you mentioned Eastman Kodak and that was actually the the origin of it, less than a month later.

 

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Brian Shine: individually are two firms, who is a buffalo based scrap dealer as well are two firms were approached by Eastman Kodak to look at a project.

 

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Brian Shine: And when we walked out of that meeting, we realized huge opportunity, but some of the materials were beyond our skill set and our focus and.

 

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Brian Shine: By joining forces, we were able to end up prevailing and operated on site a recycling facility for Eastman Kodak for 11 years.

 

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Brian Shine: That partnership still exists today we leveraged the Eastman Kodak experience to Xerox.

 

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Brian Shine: Both in western New York and then out in California, we were recycling copying machines that they came off lease for seven year so.

 

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Brian Shine: It really and now on the electronics firm that Adam is an officer in we've actually had a 10 Year Strategic management consulting agreement with.

 

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Brian Shine: And we've leveraged that to other strategic consulting agreements and so that's outside of our core activity meeting manitoba has but realizing that you know again having half the pie is better than all of zero so.

 

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Brian Shine: So we've had a couple different joint venture activities and including one that my son is now running so he represents fifth generation.

 

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Brian Shine: he's based in Denver Colorado, but we have an 11 year partnership with the Canadian partner and we got involved in recycling meters scrap as they put in new smart meters.

 

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Brian Shine: Municipalities contractors utilities around the US and they take out the old meter and these can be electric gas and water.

 

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Brian Shine: We do that work in manitoba is St Louis clamp so we've had an 11 year partnership with this Canadian partner, and those are examples of.

 

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Brian Shine: Diversifying outside of your your core business but creating opportunity that continues to support and it's within our focus it's recycling but left and right if you have.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Absolutely no it's a it's interesting that you say that one of the things that I talk about is you know when people are.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Looking for those additional income streams and I do think that it's important that you know as you're going through.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, especially in a family business because we don't you know family businesses, typically last longer than non family owned businesses for exactly the reasons.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That you know the three of you have talked about it just you know opportunities came up there was you know there's a camaraderie you know within the family, too, and I, you know, a.

 

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Michael Palumbos: desire to want to do well, for you know with the family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: But what I teach is you know if you grab your thumb and say that's you know these are our core disciplines our core business, and this is what we do.

 

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Michael Palumbos: If you continue walking down your fingers, you know you know your your index, and then the your your middle finger you don't want to get too far away.

 

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Michael Palumbos: From your core and that's exactly what you guys have been doing is taking those core processes in the core you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Things that you've learned through the years and said how can I apply them in other industries, but really smartly I love what you're talking about and then it's.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We make these strategic partnerships where it's like we know X, Y amp Z they know you know, a B and C let's put that together and do something better.

 

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Adam Shine: yeah i'm.

 

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Brian Shine: going to say, these are in and i'll turn over to Adam, but these are all built on mutual respect.

 

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Brian Shine: You know, obviously, focused on on your values but it's also understanding what like you said what your strengths and weaknesses are and complimenting.

 

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Brian Shine: We have partners and, fortunately, in both cases, with these two jv companies that that bring something to the table as to we and and so both partners are really valued and and well respected in and and it works and that's been a good thing for us so Adam.

 

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Adam Shine: yeah I was just going to add to that.

 

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Adam Shine: Brian did a good job of setting the table, because I was going to talk a little bit about the joint ventures as well, but one of the things Michael I think that we've done strategically is.

 

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Adam Shine: We haven't veer too far from our our core, as you just pointed out, which is recycling at the end of the day, that's what we know that's what we're confident and you know it's not like we are out selling.

 

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Adam Shine: You know soft serve ice cream as an example, all of our our activities are centered around recycling so.

 

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Adam Shine: it's something we know we're comfortable with we've been doing for a long time, we know and markets, we know the type of materials that are generated from the various streams and we have.

 

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Adam Shine: places to sell those materials so while we have spread our wings it's we've done so, under the guise of what our core businesses which is recycling at the end of the day.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yeah core competencies, you know we like to talk about a mass and somebody mentioned values, you know that your family, the shine family has.

 

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Michael Palumbos: A set of values of people, you know how you do things and whatnot do you mind are those values written down, do you guys talk about you know what are our core values as a family as a family business.

 

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Brian Shine: It maybe i'll jump in for a second then maybe my dad might have something to add to this but.

 

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Brian Shine: I don't think we've done a great job and formally on committing to paper our values, but it is well talked about within our firm for sure within the family.

 

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Brian Shine: In that you know in this industry in our industry recycling it's a small industry and and and word spreads fast, a lot of family businesses, and in some cases, people my generation.

 

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Brian Shine: are perfectly good capable competent people, but their father acted.

 

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Brian Shine: In it, in in appropriately and unfortunately it's very difficult to overcome, so we operate from the perspective that you know takes 105 years to build a reputation and 10 minutes to ruin it and.

 

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Brian Shine: it's, not to say that we had successful relationships with everybody we've ever encountered, we certainly have differences but.

 

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Brian Shine: The fellow that my father mentioned before, Joe baker who had a 50 year career with our business, used to say.

 

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Brian Shine: You know you walk your son the street and i'll walk mind if you can't agree and and that's fine it's it's we just keep going we treat people, the way that we want to be treated.

 

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Brian Shine: My father didn't really talk too much about this but, but with the aviation perspective.

 

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Brian Shine: For example, if we sent product to a customer back in the old days and they rejected it, for some reason downgraded it.

 

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Brian Shine: He literally jumped on the plane and go visit them because we wanted to learn, we wanted to learn, you know who is this pirate that came into us that.

 

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Brian Shine: And, in some cases, he would get to the consumer and they'd say oh sorry we already melted it know.

 

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Brian Shine: Which is no credibility whatsoever and those people you don't do business with for a long, and so we buy product that requires us to sort and and report back to the supplier.

 

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Brian Shine: For example, insulated copper wire that we buy from the construction industry throughout North America and as that material comes into us.

 

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Brian Shine: We process it to remove the coding and get to the copper, while there is hundreds literally of chopping operations or or stripping operations are people that could process it along the way.

 

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Brian Shine: But they come to us all over the US and Canada, because we have the reputation and so we truly value that and understand the importance and significance, and we are not about to turn away from from those values so.

 

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Brian Shine: We haven't committed it to paper formalized it but but we live it every day dad.

 

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Richard Shine: yeah, I would like to add.

 

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Richard Shine: When I first came into the company, there was a lot of games that were played in the recycling industry, Brian sort of tiptoed around the tulips with this, but the reality is there were some bad actors and.

 

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Richard Shine: Sick a lot of bad actors and my partner Joe baker my my father, and I only really work together for a couple of years he was pretty anxious to retire, and he was quite a bit older than Joe baker so.

 

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Richard Shine: So we didn't really work together that much but Joe baker used to he and my dad had worked together for quite some time and he always told stories about my father, for one thing.

 

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Richard Shine: He was chairman of the ethics committee of the erie county Bar Association.

 

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Richard Shine: um well I used to joke that it's pretty easy being unethical lawyer if you're a non practicing lawyer, but it, it does show my father's character.

 

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Richard Shine: and Joe baker used to also say that, if my father road you $341 and 15 cents, you were going to get the 15 cents, because he always wanted to pay you exactly what to do, and he expected the same thing in return.

 

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Richard Shine: And we were taught early on, which Brian did mention that your reputation is everything and it took it's taken you know over 100 years for manitoba corporation to develop the reputation in the industry that we have.

 

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Richard Shine: Although we got a big boost when Brian became chairman of our National Association, because he got to know, everybody in the industry and.

 

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Richard Shine: But we always had a good reputation and and only got better enhance with with brian's activities and.

 

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Richard Shine: In Israel So yes, core values are extremely important, and we do live them every day we we practice the golden we're all we treat our customers like we want to be treated and that was sort of refreshing in our industry back in the early days of my career gotcha.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thank you that's awesome I i'm a big believer in core purpose and core values.

 

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Michael Palumbos: For this reason, what we what we've learned through studying other companies, and not just us, but other professionals that have studied companies is that when you're able.

 

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Michael Palumbos: to connect the core purpose and the core values for the employees, it helps them to have something other than just coming in, for a paycheck.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And you know you know we forget, you know you're in the recycling business, but the good that you're doing for the planet.

 

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Michael Palumbos: In recycling all those things the goods that you're doing for all of these companies in the jobs that you create the trickle down to the all the work that you do there's a lot of really good things that are happening inside of there.

 

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Brian Shine: I, I just wanted to jump in if I could and say I really appreciate you saying that because.

 

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Brian Shine: you're exactly right, especially in today's employment, environment, where it's so difficult to attract and retain employees.

 

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Brian Shine: One of the advantages that we have is is its purpose driven and it truly is in terms of the important work and with the report that came out earlier this week in terms of climate control and damage that's been done and.

 

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Brian Shine: What scrap this is really an important.

 

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Brian Shine: Part of the solution and it's starting to get much more recognition, I remember when I first started with my dad and business.

 

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Brian Shine: You know, we were the junkyard and don't let your women and children walk you know pass the front gate and it was awful and it was.

 

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Brian Shine: You know, really you felt incriminated even though, what we were doing we knew that was an important role.

 

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Brian Shine: But as time has gone by it's raised in significance, and I think evidence of that is through the pandemic the early days of coven the trade association that we are members of.

 

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Brian Shine: was able to or was instrumental in having us declared as an essential industry, and so the politicians understood the importance of.

 

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Brian Shine: It it was very broad based and it's all recyclers but they understood that we had to keep the products moving and it's a it's a feedstock what we do is create a feedstock to the manufacturing.

 

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Brian Shine: process so it's really important, and I just came from a safety meeting with all of our employees and you're right that's an opportunity and that's what we discussed today was how far the industry has come and it used to be.

 

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Brian Shine: When my dad and I first began, you know when I first began my journey, it was visual it was a visual inspection of the product quality and then it moved to more with Adams age coming in.

 

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Brian Shine: Something called the nighttime analyzer so it was a significant investment in equipment to be able to shoot using rf technology, the materials to determine the content.

 

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Brian Shine: And now that's not good enough, we just recently made a major investment in lab equipment for the first time ever, so that we can analyze.

 

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Brian Shine: In order perform for our customers were ISO certified International Standards Organization.

 

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Brian Shine: And it's a critical certification for us that allows us to continue with existing clients and also to garner new clients and it's it's a complex.

 

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Brian Shine: standard, especially when you consider that scrap materials are the input and we feel really fortunate that our crew our staff our team of manitoba folks understand and appreciate the the mission and so thank you for mentioning great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And Would you mind jumping in and talking.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Your your joint venture a little bit you know I don't think sometimes people realize the importance of why recycling all that you know the electric you know the electrical components and the young.

 

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Michael Palumbos: jumped on that yeah.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I know you know what i'm thinking.

 

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Adam Shine: I do, and i'm happy to talk about it, so you know, one of the things you know my my father and brother alluded to.

 

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Adam Shine: You know some of the the nonsense that went on in the metals recycling business back in the day and.

 

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Adam Shine: One of the reasons I think i'm drawn to electronics is because it's you don't have those stories it's a much more mature industry.

 

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Adam Shine: hasn't been around nearly as long, so you don't have some of those stories and you generally don't have some of the players that are involved in the metals recycling business it's a little bit of a younger man's game, I would, I would say.

 

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Adam Shine: So i've been drawn to that and, yes, there is a major.

 

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Adam Shine: issue with regard to education of individuals like yourself Michael who don't know what to do with this material so when i'm talking about electronics, of course, i'm talking about.

 

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Adam Shine: computers and laptops and printers and cell phones and all of those things, but really it's a lot more than that.

 

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Adam Shine: If you look around your office and you think about anything that you plug in or more so, nowadays, anything that is wireless whether it's you know, an MP3 player, or whether it's.

 

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Adam Shine: light up sneakers is something that we see right because they've got a battery in a circuit board and them.

 

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Adam Shine: All of those things are electronics and and the proliferation of electronics is is happening so fast and and people are upgrading their materials and equipment so quickly, I mean I tell the story often but I remember growing up, we had one family computer that everybody shared.

 

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Adam Shine: And you know I would write my school papers on it, and my dad would check his email on There probably AOL I remember vividly it being dial up, and you know it was slow and.

 

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Adam Shine: You know now fast forward i've got a cell phone i've got a tablet actually i've got a few tablets, because I have kids i've got a laptop i've got a desktop here i've got a desktop at home i've got a printer at home i've got you know it all sorts of different devices.

 

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Adam Shine: Old DVD players and whatnot so.

 

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Adam Shine: Technology is evolving so fast and the problem is, we need the education of what to do with this stuff to catch up, so our business some king, that is our joint joint venture.

 

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Adam Shine: or consulting contract really focuses on trying to grow that business, and it is growing inherently.

 

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Adam Shine: it's based really on two types of streams B2B and B2C so on the B2B side, I think, generally, people are savvy enough to know what to do with the material, but on the consumer side.

 

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Adam Shine: Even, myself included, i've got material that I use at home or equipment, rather, that I use at home.

 

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Adam Shine: That i'll use until it dies, because I don't want to spend on unnecessary money on the latest greatest stuff.

 

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Adam Shine: it'll die and then i'll put it in my basement for 10 years until my wife says hey time to get rid of it.

 

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Adam Shine: And it's a very common story that we hear from everybody, but the idea is to try to provide them access and the knowledge to know that you can't put it in the garbage and you can't it's.

 

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Adam Shine: there's dangerous materials in the circuit boards there's in the case of the old glass tube televisions there's lead in there and.

 

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Adam Shine: You don't want this stuff ending up in a landfill, because then you could have major environmental issues, so and and frankly.

 

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Adam Shine: One of the things that some King focuses on more so on the on the commercial side than on the consumer side is reuse and repurpose electronics and, at the end of the day, that's absolutely the number one.

 

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Adam Shine: way to recycle equipment is to use it for its initially intended purpose, and if you can't as a unit use it for its initially intended purpose, then you try to harvest the parts out of it and reuse those.

 

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Adam Shine: If, at the end of the day, none of its reusable, then you break it down you melt it and make new products, out of it so.

 

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Adam Shine: it's it's definitely a growing business sun kings been around now 21 years and.

 

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Adam Shine: we've we've really seen tremendous growth in the past three to five years we're very happy with the trajectory but, like you said, certainly, we need to get the message out more than we have.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Here appreciate that thanks.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yeah let's you know, Richard one of the things that I found really interesting about your story is you know your love of flying and your you know that's that was always your number one passion correct.

 

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Richard Shine: Well, not always.

 

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Richard Shine: It started.

 

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Richard Shine: When I went to the universe I started out in the St Lawrence university as a freshman and I was a liberal arts major history and government, and I really couldn't.

 

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Richard Shine: figure out how I was going to make a living, but one of the things I did at St Lawrence was I joined the rotc program which was completely voluntary and.

 

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Richard Shine: A well respected program it was army rotc and I was probably one of the worst guys drilling I had two left feet.

 

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Richard Shine: But it was fun going out there and marching with a rifle and shooting the gun and all that kind of stuff So when I transferred to you be to change my major to business in with thinking, while there is a possibility, I might go into business at some point.

 

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Richard Shine: They had air force rotc and what I didn't know as as a junior in college was how.

 

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Richard Shine: Ill respected the rotc program was a newbie, the reason being that freshmen and sophomores were forced into it, they hated it and.

 

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Richard Shine: But I was, I was told that I would get paid 90 cents a day if I joined it, so I thought, what the heck.

 

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Richard Shine: that's $27 a month and back then, in the 60s early 60s was pretty significant money, so I basically did it for the money and then, as I previously stated, I really didn't have that much desire to go into my father's business.

 

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Richard Shine: So I thought well i'm going to go into the air force so if I go into the air force, I really should learn how to fly and.

 

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Richard Shine: I passed all the required physicals and the testing the psychological testing all the stuff they did, and you know they eventually shipped me off to pilot training, but.

 

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Richard Shine: My when I got off active duty, I wanted to continue to fly and I joined the reserves at Niagara falls, so I was able to do that, but I also bought a half interest in a little tiny single engine airplane.

 

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Richard Shine: Because I thought you know it'd be fun to be able to fly what we call general aviation I had only really flown military type airplanes so.

 

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Richard Shine: When I after I bought a half interest in this airplane I found out how expensive those things were they really are.

 

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Richard Shine: Twice to some extent, and I started scheming about ways that we could use that device in business, so the company would kind of help me pay for it.

 

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Richard Shine: And my father really didn't like airplanes and but he said Okay, as long as you want to do that, but i'm not going with you and our partner at the time, this Joseph baker was all for it, he said that's really great so we took our very first trip.

 

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Richard Shine: Up to mussina New York and it's a company, we still do business with today it's an Alcoa plant and we.

 

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Richard Shine: Gradually started getting out of buffalo I think I had previously mentioned the when I joined the business, we did.

 

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Richard Shine: We had a radius of about 10 miles at the most, and we just didn't venture out of the local area, we had no competitive ability to do so, but once we got into an airplane.

 

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Richard Shine: We could be gone for short times we go out for a day make three or four sales calls in two or three different cities, sometimes we would even stop and have dinner with a potential customer on the way home.

 

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Richard Shine: And we were only out of the Office for a day, we could still mind the store and we gradually built up the business and built up the company.

 

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Richard Shine: You know if you knock on enough doors you're going to get some business eventually somebody says yes and my job was to sort of figure out how we could.

 

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Richard Shine: Do something with a potential customer or supplier Joe baker's job was to find the guy to knock on his door, so we were good team and we went through lots of different airplanes and.

 

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Richard Shine: branch farther and farther and enough enough of those doors said yes to us and that really helped our company grow I attribute my aviation ability.

 

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Richard Shine: More than my business ability my my you be business education was good, but business is really common sense and.

 

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Richard Shine: Most anybody I think could do a good job in business just by treating people fairly and and you know, doing the right thing for people so that's where we are today.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great I love, how you took your passion and brought it into the business to grow, the business that way that's phenomenal I think you know a lot of times people forget, you know that when we're in a family business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, we shouldn't be talking about to each family member to say what are your passions and to see if there's any intersection between that passion, potentially, and you know and what and what you're doing to see if you can't capitalize on that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: i'd also even take it a step further and be you know talking to employees, especially your key leadership employees to say.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know what are your passions outside of work, and you know what else you know drives you, because when you can connect that passion with the with the job that's that's a win, win for everybody.

 

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Michael Palumbos: How many how many employees does manitoba have today.

 

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Brian Shine: we've approximately 60 between Lancaster which has 50 and St Louis another 10 to 10 to 12.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great and then, and then it within the Joint ventures as there's probably a ton of employees that way that you touch that way as well.

 

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Brian Shine: Well, there, there is, but we actually take advantage of existing infrastructure in cases so.

 

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Brian Shine: we're actually, for example in the in the meter per second business we're doing most of that work in our St Louis plant it's central to the country and it.

 

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Brian Shine: works well, both from a inbound and outbound perspective and so we're actually leveraging minutes of his existing facility and charging the joint venture so it's it's working well for all parties.

 

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Great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: um.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Where do what did I want to talk about I had a question on the tip of my tongue, a second ago.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I know exactly what I want to talk about I want to talk about through the years you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We all struggle with things happen Would you mind sharing you know, a story that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: could have tripped you up what did you learn from it, how did you manage through the struggle, you know just I think we learn more from our mistakes and more from our struggles that we do from the successes that we have so.

 

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Brian Shine: You want to go for that one.

 

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Richard Shine: Well, we.

 

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Richard Shine: i'm a very, very conservative person, and you know I hate to keep bringing in airplanes to this conversation we're really discussing family business, but when you when you.

 

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Richard Shine: When you fly an airplane you have to have a way out, you get into a difficult situation you're in horrible trouble if you do not have some escape method method.

 

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Richard Shine: And that's one of the things we're taught, especially going through professional pilot training like like I did with the air force so i've always operated the business on a very conservative basis and we've always tried to find.

 

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Richard Shine: A way out and not to put all our eggs in one basket not ever to allow ourselves to get into a situation where it could bring us down now, having said that there's drawbacks there's certainly some good things to that philosophy, but there's drawbacks you don't.

 

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Richard Shine: You maybe don't expand or have the success that you would have if you're too conservative but also you live to fight another day and I always felt like.

 

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Richard Shine: We make a good living out of this business we provide a good living for all of our employees and.

 

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Richard Shine: We always want to live to fight another day so we've had we've had our ups and downs we've made mistakes, but normally it's the kind of thing where maybe we bought something from a customer and the customer didn't deliver.

 

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Richard Shine: Because the market went against him, he sold it at a low level and the market started moving up and he wouldn't deliver it so we don't get that metal and that hurts us quite a bit.

 

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Richard Shine: We have very small profit margins in the recycling world there's lots of competition out there for metals, so we work on small margins and if somebody doesn't.

 

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Richard Shine: deliver the metal they owe us a truckload of copper and the market goes up 20 cents or 30 cents, when you only make two or three cents that's a significant loss.

 

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Richard Shine: So we've had people like that what happens is we turn the page and we don't do business with them anymore.

 

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Richard Shine: And you know once or twice in our in our career we've gotten the bright idea that we really know the copper market and we can speculate makes money.

 

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Richard Shine: Although we've seen a number of people go out of business and Brian had mentioned earlier that we use a device called hedging so that we're a buyer every single day or a seller every single day and.

 

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Richard Shine: We had which allows us to buy high and sell low and still make a profit it's it's a complicated thing at no point and really getting into it, but we do use that.

 

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Richard Shine: That tool and we use it a lot, but every once in a while we get a little too big for our britches and we think we really know this copper mark and which way it's going and we've speculated now never with to the extent that we could bring the company down we just wouldn't do that.

 

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Richard Shine: My philosophy just doesn't work that way.

 

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Richard Shine: But we have and sometimes we've gotten kicked in the butt because we we don't really know we know the markets too high or the markets too low.

 

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Richard Shine: But what we don't know is timing when When will the rest of the world, decided to hire it's too low.

 

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Richard Shine: So we really don't do any of that anymore, because that's something that we've learned learned the hard way, but we try not to ever do anything to the that would bring the entire company down.

 

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Brian Shine: Maybe just emphasize that or talk a little further about that, so I mentioned earlier that we learned a lot from our customers and I remember distinctly when I first joined the company which is 1985.

 

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Brian Shine: Shortly after I joined, we were visited by the local brass mill in buffalo it's now known as a robust it's had many names over time.

 

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Brian Shine: But they've had a pretty similar history to ours somewhere between 90 and 100 years in business, so we haven't beat by just a little.

 

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Brian Shine: Anyway, we have a really close working relationship with them and again there's a lot of trust in a lot of business back and forth with that particular firm.

 

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Brian Shine: Well, they approached us in 1985 asked for an appointment to come visit my dad myself and in our partner, and they were talking about the fact that they were having rejections internally.

 

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Brian Shine: from scratch supplied by over 300 suppliers and the rules are changing, and they were going to start grading us on everything from the metal quality to the packaging to the paperwork.

 

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Brian Shine: And you know we were in the scrap metal business and we thought what What is this about these are scrap metal, how are we ever going to do this.

 

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Brian Shine: We almost literally laughed as they left our office, not to them, of course, but, but after they left and.

 

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Brian Shine: And then within 10 minutes we kind of looked at each other and said, you know this actually could be one heck of an opportunity, because if we can figure out how to how to make perfection.

 

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Brian Shine: We can be the conduit we can collect from other recyclers and make the right package and be one of their valued suppliers and you know what it works beautifully and.

 

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Brian Shine: I, we still have relationship with the purchasing agent, who is in charge at that time and still to this day.

 

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Brian Shine: He has letters in his file from other scrapped are saying you know forget you we've got other places, we can ship to we don't need this and.

 

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Brian Shine: we're script dealers and you know blah blah blah and the ones that realize that this was an opportunity are still supplying them today and we're proud to say that 20 I the last.

 

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Brian Shine: 21 years or something we won their top five the supplier of the year award, and so we really value that relationship and it helped us, because we learned.

 

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Brian Shine: That we had to move the company forward we had and we became ISO certified it was one of the precursors to becoming ISO certified so.

 

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Brian Shine: mistakes made you know, sometimes it's it's small or short term, but one thing I love about this company and about our family and above everybody here.

 

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Brian Shine: At manitoba is that we, when there is a mistake made, we encourage getting feedback from our customer our supplier because that's how we learn and get better and.

 

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Brian Shine: I really love that about our company, because it does create opportunity it's such my dad mentioned since small margin extremely transparent industry in that.

 

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Brian Shine: We don't handle retail, but if people come up to a scrap dealer with 10 pounds of copper they pull out their iPhone and they say Oh, I see coppers up today.

 

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Brian Shine: There are no bargains you know there's no fat margin anywhere along the chain, and so you have to do things well and do things right, and again it's an opportunity to hear from your customers and suppliers and learn and grow and do the right thing, which makes us all, better for it so.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Wonderful wonderful opportunity for people to hear that it's within the obstacles within within the you know, the issues of the problems that come up.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Is the opportunity to grow and do something better than everybody else it's, how do we turn that issue into a core process of us, which gives us a competitive advantage nicely done Adam through the years I gotta believe you know your.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Your background, being the fact that you did spend a lot of time outside of the business first what are some of the things that you were able to bring from outside of the business to the business that were that's been helpful for the family.

 

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Adam Shine: yeah so to a student point and a good question I because I like technology, I think that's the biggest thing that I probably brought from outside, I had.

 

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Adam Shine: Great knowledge of great knowledge, I had a moderately good knowledge of electronics and computers and the way they work, and I will say, because our business is sold or our industry in general is sold that oftentimes we are reluctant or hesitant to adopt new program software etc and.

 

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Adam Shine: You know, one of the things I like is having more of a paperless environment and bringing technology and wearing when it can help you and Brian alluded to.

 

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Adam Shine: You know the the nighttime analyzers before you know I remember when I started in the business, which was in 2008.

 

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Adam Shine: We still had some guys at that time that they were spark testing metal and they could tell what it was based on the spark I remember, we had one guy that would drop it on the floor and could tell by.

 

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Adam Shine: The sound that it made, I mean it's incredible and I missed those guys because they were so good at what they did and and there was no replacement for it until.

 

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Adam Shine: Technology came along, and now you can shoot it and, and you know essentially tell what what it is, although I would say it's it's not always exactly 100% accurate and and you know as Brian mentioned, we just made a an even larger purchase on a device that is going to give us even more.

 

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Adam Shine: Information and and.

 

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Adam Shine: And comfort level and knowing that there's there's not a lot of.

 

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Adam Shine: You know contaminants in our in our product, because one of the things we're known for is producing very good pure product, so I think technology has been a big one, equipment and technology and and really bringing us.

 

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Adam Shine: From you know what was paper and pencil not not exactly when I got in, but it was it was just starting, some of the.

 

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Adam Shine: electronics, we had you know and still do in large part, have access based programs but we've added computers on the floor, we brought in other technologies.

 

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Adam Shine: You know, like like the nighttime that we alluded to, and have done other things, to try to get us up to speed and be a little bit more with the times, if you will.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great Thank you yeah.

 

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Michael Palumbos: As a family there's three of you have to believe that you know you don't always agree on a path forward how, what is your decision making process.

 

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Michael Palumbos: When you don't agree, how do you how do you how do you move forward if that if that comes up does that ever happen and and how do you handle that.

 

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Brian Shine: yeah so i'll jump in i'm sure, each one of us might have a different slant on this but, from my perspective, first of all within it's.

 

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Brian Shine: it's a amazing honor to work with my brother, my father my son and everybody here, but certainly the family element I feel lucky about that.

 

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Brian Shine: These are people that that I know are committed hard working passionate and I have the utmost respect, which is a beautiful place to start so.

 

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Brian Shine: You have built in trust and you just you see it you watch it you live it every day, so I feel really fortunate with that.

 

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Brian Shine: There are times, where you know I literally would walk into my dad's office and I would say i'm here is your son.

 

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Brian Shine: or i'm here's your partner or you know to distinguish because sometimes that lines to get money and blurred and so I think for me that was kind of an important way to set the table as to.

 

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Brian Shine: The nature of the conversation, and that was learned over time, that was an inherent you know from day one that was kind of learned over time and something I either picked up or or it worked for me to set the table differently, because.

 

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Brian Shine: Although it's they're indistinguishable in some ways they're important to be separated and others so.

 

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Brian Shine: Fortunately over the many years that i've worked with my dad and now with Adam we really haven't had too many disputes, I mean.

 

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Brian Shine: it's healthy for an organization to look at things in a different way and I think we all respect that about each other so we're.

 

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Brian Shine: we're hearing what the other person is saying we're trying to step back and not just immediately react to it and that that's a learned technique as well to step back, think about it and.

 

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Brian Shine: And, and you know I think I learned, I read a book recently and heard that you know there's there's things that are right and everybody's response and reaction so.

 

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Brian Shine: To go from zero to 100 to say you're 100% right and somebody else's zero percent right.

 

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Brian Shine: is ridiculous, of course, and so I think, as you start to just hear that simple message you start to look for what are the elements that that person is communicating that.

 

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Brian Shine: truly have value and will drive the organization forward.

 

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Brian Shine: And at the end of the day, even if there's disputes, you know that I feel that I know that the family members that are here are committed, and they want what's best for the enterprise, and as long as you start from that base then then you're good right.

 

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Adam Shine: I would, I would add to that a little bit so you know, for me, I think one thing that i've learned or i'm still learning is to pick pick your battles right, you know, not everything.

 

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Adam Shine: Always is so important that you have to really fight for it, I mean at the end of the day, as Brian alluded to, I think.

 

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Adam Shine: I know that he and my father always have the best interest of the company in mind, and so you know, while I might not agree with something.

 

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Adam Shine: You know it's certainly not to the detriment of the business and and and you know it can be a learning experience, even for me to better understand why they feel the way they feel, I think that, and then the other thing I think is.

 

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Adam Shine: oftentimes if if there's a discussion or an argument or disagreement that comes up.

 

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Adam Shine: I really think it's good to extract yourself and take 24 hours and sleep on it and I often find that when i'm angry about something and it's rare that I get really angry about something, but I think sometimes your first.

 

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Adam Shine: You know line of Defense is to get defensive or think like why this doesn't make any sense, but I find often.

 

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Adam Shine: That, if you take 24 hours and you sleep on it, you start to think about it from different angles, you can oftentimes.

 

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Adam Shine: sort of back off maybe the way you felt or start to understand how somebody else could see it from a different light so.

 

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Adam Shine: You know I think wow like I said well sometimes your initial reaction.

 

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Adam Shine: is maybe one of defensiveness or not understanding, I think oftentimes if you sit back and.

 

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Adam Shine: And then talk to others in your life, I talked to my wife often times and I asked her you know i'll bring in what's happening in the family business and a confidential way, of course, and.

 

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Adam Shine: And i'll say what are your thoughts and my overreacting, do you agree, do you disagree and oftentimes she's a great sounding board, because I am overreacting.

 

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Adam Shine: And she helps me to see it in a different light, so I think it's important to bounce it off other people that you care about and trust and.

 

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Adam Shine: But, but again I think at the end of the day, taking time to sit back and think about it, nothing has to happen that quickly that you don't have time to sit back and think about it and make the right decision for everybody.

 

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Michael Palumbos: General and there was a lot of really packed information in there, I want, I want to capture a couple of them make sure people heard them when sometimes I think Brian what you said.

 

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Michael Palumbos: is maybe there's an old cartoon people have seen where the dads wearing a hat that says, you know hey son you're not you know it's got the boss head on hey son, as you know your boss and need to let you know that you're not performing so you're fired.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And then, in the next you know seen the cartoon he's got the dead head on, and you know looks at his son and says hey I heard you had a tough day at work, you want to talk about it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: and brain that's really what you're bringing to the table when when you're saying that is that you know hey i'm approaching you as as your son.

 

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Michael Palumbos: i'm approaching you as, as you know, a business as a business partner and and having that distinction sometimes can just give people set the stage for what this.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know what is the appropriate response in this circumstance, I really, really appreciated you bringing that up.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And i'm you know that you brought up the point of the fact that you know it is okay that we talked to our spouses and I think that the point that I want to bring into that is that, as a family business, we need to realize that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Even non non working members in the family business are affected by the family business and in a positive way, more often than not, but you know utilizing those people is that outside you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yeah Council really helps, so this is great stuff so really appreciate, you know everybody's input there um.

 

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Michael Palumbos: we're down to you know the last couple of minutes here, one thing that I would love to know is, when you're talking about your core customers how well do you define you know who are your core customers today.

 

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Brian Shine: Well, in the in the core business and a type of corporation we're we're copper centric so we're producing.

 

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Brian Shine: 98% of what passes through our facility is copper and when it leaves us we're looking for for people that are going to melt the material as an input to the next stage in manufacturing process so.

 

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Brian Shine: Our customers because we've been in western New York for so long, are predominantly within a 500 mile radius of our facility, but that's not exclusively true we do supply outside.

 

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Brian Shine: Of that that radius and we do have the plant in St Louis which my dad and our partner Joe baker opened in 1981 and.

 

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Brian Shine: And we're still operating that facility today so over time we've we've grown some influence and we use that for warehousing distribution specialty packaging, as I mentioned earlier, this this joint venture company and activity.

 

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Brian Shine: is supported through the St Louis operation so and we are looking as we look out into the future, to possibly expand to the potential of the southeast as well.

 

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Brian Shine: Basically, to create a triangle, because we pull material from from southeast and we also ship back material to consumers in the southeast so that's on our.

 

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Brian Shine: horizon at some point, as things settle down we get past the current coven situation and we start to see a return of regular volume to our business so.

 

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Brian Shine: Anybody that's melting materials is really a potential customer and anybody that's producing any kind of copper scrap anywhere in North America is our potential supplier.

 

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Great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Any parting words from anybody else so give Richard if you if you had one piece of advice or one one thing that you would be saying to another family business, what would you what would you leave them with.

 

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The.

 

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Richard Shine: Sorry, I forgot I muted it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I don't know.

 

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Richard Shine: I think i've already said this, but I, I believe that you need to have an escape route all the time you can't let yourself get into a situation where you have no out.

 

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Richard Shine: And when you're looking at doing something and expansion or you're looking at.

 

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Richard Shine: A new piece of equipment or something you, you need to make sure that you have the ability to operate that to pay for it.

 

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Richard Shine: That it's not going to create a situation that you, you can't afford to take a salary because you're so busy paying for this debt yo.

 

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Richard Shine: So I would say that that I believe is the way to operate the business and that's kind of the philosophy that i've i've used throughout the years, but these two guys are are very capable and.

 

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Richard Shine: You know I think the company would be in great hands i'm still here on a day to day basis I don't really have the ownership anymore, but but I like coming in, and I, and I do, but I do think that we've got a good bright future.

 

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Great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Adam.

 

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Adam Shine: yeah I think I think, for me, I would say.

 

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Adam Shine: Leave work at work and and separate work from personal like like you know, Brian is really I would say instilled that in me, you know he.

 

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Adam Shine: Although I find him and my father talking about work all the time of family get togethers but he is oftentimes said to me let's let's not talk about work at that family get togethers and parties let's leave it at the office and.

 

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Adam Shine: I think you do have to really separate.

 

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Adam Shine: You know the work and the personal relationship sometimes there's tough conversations to be had and and it gets awkward and uncomfortable, but you have to again understand that you're doing that to drive the business forward and to try to you know, improve.

 

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Adam Shine: The company's culture and life and profitability and all those things, and while you might not always agree, you got to keep that at work and still maintain the relationship outside of the office so.

 

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Adam Shine: I love working in a family business I as Brian said it's it's great to be able to come and see my brother and father at work every day and.

 

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Adam Shine: To get into the trenches with them and try to make things happen, and I feel very fortunate that way, and you know there's a lot of good that comes with it and and so i'm thrilled to be here, and thanks for having us.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Brian take us out.

 

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Brian Shine: No pressure right well Michael thanks for hosting this it's really admire the work that you've been doing and I wish you the best of luck as you continue to to bring this information to other family enterprises and.

 

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Brian Shine: I think it's it's really there are so many things to learn from from others, and you know we're certainly glad to be here today, and be a small contributor, and we look forward to everybody moving forward in a positive way and continue to build Western Europe and beyond, so thank you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great well we've been talking with the owners of manitoba corporation today and for anybody that wants to connect with them.

 

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Michael Palumbos: manitoba corp.com is where you can find them on the web, Adam Brian Richard Thank you all so much.

 

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Michael Palumbos: really appreciate your time and you're sharing with us today, my name is Michael Columbus this has been the family biz show and with family wealth and legacy in Rochester New York.

 

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Michael Palumbos: If you liked this episode, make sure that you subscribe, so you don't miss future ones, thank you, everybody for joining us and we look forward to talking with you on another episode of the family biz show.

 

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Thank you.

 

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Kristina Rocci: Mike are you still here.

 

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Kristina Rocci: Oh don't stop recording.

If you’re a family business or a family business consultant and want to be on the show, share your story and help other family businesses, send us an email to producer@thefamilybizshow.com or fill out a contact form here!

*not affiliated with Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp.

Michael Palumbos is a registered representative of Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp. Securities and investment advisory services offered through Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp., a broker/dealer (member SIPC) and registered investment advisor. Insurance offered through Lincoln affiliates and other fine companies. Family Wealth & Legacy, LLC is not an affiliate of Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp. Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp. and its representatives do not provide legal or tax advice. You may want to consult a legal or tax advisor regarding any legal or tax information as it relates to your personal circumstances.

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