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Episode 43: Family Relationships & Succession Planning

In this episode of the Family Biz Show, host Michael Palumbos welcomes Kathleen Chiavetta to discuss the dynamics of running a longstanding family business. Kathleen shares her journey within her family's 60-year-old business, highlighting her transition from helping her dad during her youth to taking on more significant roles over the years. She reflects on her experiences in various job roles within the business and the evolution of her responsibilities as she and the business matured.

Kathleen emphasizes the emotional connection many people have with their family businesses, especially when those businesses play a role in community traditions and personal milestones. She discusses the challenges of balancing family relationships with business operations, including navigating her roles as a daughter and a business leader.

The conversation delves into the importance of aligning personal passions with business needs, ensuring that family members in the business are engaged and contributing in ways that resonate with their interests and strengths. Kathleen and Michael explore the concept of legacy and the weight of carrying forward a family business's success across generations.

This episode offers insights into the complexities of family business management, the interplay of personal and professional development within a family enterprise, and the profound impact a family business can have on its members and the community it serves.

Episode 43 Transcript


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Kathleen Chiavetta: Okay.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Well, welcome everybody to the family biz show my name is Michael Columbus with family wealth and legacy here in Rochester New York, and we are blessed and honored to have Kathleen Chavez.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Join us today and we're going to be talking about family dynamics and family business and how do we keep a 60 year old family business running and doing the things that that they're doing so Kathleen welcome.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Thank you so much for having me i'm happy to be here.

 

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Michael Palumbos: we're excited to have you here as well.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We have a tradition, we asked people to kind of give us the how did you end up in the family business story, because what we have found is.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Every story's a little different and did you know so were you somebody that dove right in we're always in the family business or tell us your story that'd be.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Great oh no, no, of course, not so sure.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Like a lot of family businesses, I think I first started to help my dad out the businesses on my father side of the family, I think I always eat.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, and then I went and health cater a picnic and you know, had you had to wrap the apron strings around me a couple of times kind of thing.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And I helped you know growing up, and it was my job, through high school and a little bit beyond and then.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Like is not you know very uncommon among family businesses, I had to go do my own thing for a little while and my own thing was just.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: A series of menial sort of not very satisfying jobs and then I decided to you know stay home and devote myself to taking care of my children full time.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And one day my dad came over and he said, you know we have this weekend long event.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Really busy are really short handed and do you think you can just come help out it'll just be for a couple of days, and the rest, as they say, is history, so I I that was about 20 years ago now.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I helped for a couple of days, and then the couple of days turn into weeks and months, and now 20 years later, here we are.

 

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Michael Palumbos: good for you.

 

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Michael Palumbos: So yeah it just started off just being part of the Labor force, and you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yeah doing things to you know what was your journey inside the company.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: and talk about you know, starting from the bottom, I was just telling someone yesterday, the story about how, when I first came back, and that would have been in my early maybe mid 20s.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I think of every shift there was, I mean I did.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I catered picnics I watched so many dishes that my hand started to crack and my grandmother felt so sorry for me that one day she came into the dish room and presented me with this special hand lotion that she thought was really going to help me.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And so I did that and I had my i'm the oldest of five so my second oldest sister had been working in the office at that time.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And she was going to be graduating from college and moving on with her life, so I stepped into that role, and at that time I was really just more support for my father, and then we sort of had this kind of parallel journey, you know dad was.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, getting a little older, although he still very much.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: gets up and likes coming to work so as he was starting to kind of get older and want to focus on different things, and by himself attractor so that he can ride around this property in it, little by little, he would start giving over responsibilities.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And then you know, a sort of similar thing is happening behind me with with my children.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: really are very similar journeys.

 

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Michael Palumbos: What is how about a little bit you know share the history How did the business start who started it what were the fan, and how did How did the just like kind of like a mini journey of the transitions.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: yeah yeah I love to tell this story so i'll try to keep it.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: The mini version of the journey, so my grandparents my grandfather, in particular, had a poultry farm really he just started out with just selling eggs and then i'm.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Like you know housewives would come to him with the chickens they had just slaughtered and said, what do I do with this, can you can you help me with this.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And that kind of turned into poultry and so eventually it became a poultry farm and back in the early to mid 1950s cornell university.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Had a professor there by the name of Dr James Baker and Dr baker's job was to try to find ways for poultry farmers to sell more poultry, you know it was through.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: An agricultural co op they were trying to help farmers so Dr baker came up with this method that if you are from somewhere in New York state.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Particularly in the in the more Western New York or upstate regions, you know some version of Dr baker's Barbecue it's the vinegar base marinade that vinegar based sauce.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: it's cooked over charcoal you know, on those grapes, and so my grandparents went to a Co op meeting I think at the Easter a home and Farm Bureau.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And they learned about this, and they were like Well, this is cool let's go home and try this so they screwed around.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know a little bit i'm changed the recipe, a little bit from Dr baker's original recipe, and I think you will find many families across New York did the same thing, but their own little twist on it.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: We did the same and we started just cooking for local fire departments, you know, we were very involved in the small town local community.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And so we started cooking for fire departments and then more fire departments, and then there were churches and then there were schools and then people wanted a wedding catered.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And again, that was 1954 it's about the year we started doing what we're doing now.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And now, and now here we are, we get about you know, a half a million people a year.

 

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Michael Palumbos: wow that's awesome when your grandparents started this your grandfather how many children did he have how many children were in the business, you know after he started at the.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Service so and my grandparents five must be the lucky number my my father was one to five, my mother is one to five i'm one of five that must be the key write it down.

 

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key to success.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: If you have five children odds are you'll end up with at least one who's going to stick around.

 

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Michael Palumbos: that's right that's right.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So my grandparents had five children, my father is the youngest i'm his oldest brother Tom worked in the business for quite a number of years, and my father and his.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Next oldest brother Paul worked together for very, very many years they had a great partnerships my uncle Paul, unfortunately.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: passed away a number of years ago and that just left my father, but his two sisters, you know when often and kind of live live to their own life so you know, here we are at this point my uncle Tom has long since retired.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So it's my know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: When you when that transition happened, do you know the story of how that transition worked was it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know there's always that juggle have, I have one child that's continuing the business or there's a couple kids in the business, how did your grandparents choose to deal with that you know the business is an asset, how do I do that stuff.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Sure, well, I mean it's challenging isn't it and I think that's that's why you have a whole podcast.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Businesses have some really you know it's almost cliche to say you need challenges but but it's the truth, and I think in our family, we have been pretty fortunate through you know we're into the fourth generation now.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: The you know the children who have wanted to remain in the business have have pretty well self selected, you know there's always been.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: At least one or two children who want to remain in the business, you know the parents have the competence that okay these one or two children who want to stay in the business are going to do okay.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So, so we have been fortunate there that doesn't mean to say that those transitions have been have been easy, and then everything goes smoothly and swimmingly I think that we all know, that's not how it works, but we have been fortunate.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: That capable people want to remain and be involved in and grow the business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Okay, great and so now, you know who's in the business today in the family, how many family members are involved.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Sure, so we're we're starting to we are starting to dwindle a little bit um but, so we have myself so i'm a third generation my oldest daughter is the fourth generation, as I said, with my father, he he still likes to.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, get up and come around he's still very active he'd be very mad if I didn't tell everyone that he's very active still in the business.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: my brother is works for the business part time he also has his own other ventures on the side, I have a cousin in the business and then, I have a cousin in law, my cousin's husband works for us, and that I think is most of the the family unit there.

 

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Michael Palumbos: gotcha that's awesome good for you, I I was the only one, when my father, you know they got into the working with family businesses that's what we do.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And it just kind of strict you know our journey was a little strange and how that happened, but then just had businesses realized, they were all family owned, then when I got into do the same work.

 

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Michael Palumbos: It was you know the dynamics between my father and I I was like I need to talk to some people about this, so I got involved in Syracuse had the family business group out there through the Chamber and.

 

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Michael Palumbos: But, so I was the only one that ended up so just like you said it was kind of natural selection in terms of you know what did it i'm happy to say that I have two payments left my father.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And will have bought bought him out of those those businesses so that's pretty exciting.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: yeah sure.

 

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Michael Palumbos: When when you're going through and doing.

 

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Michael Palumbos: How do you separate you know, family and business and management, and you know but there's the the three circle model is.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, talked about in the family business world ownership, you know versus family versus management, how do you guys, you know what's the what's the formula that has worked for you.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I don't know I thought you were gonna tell me, I thought that was like the free gift I got in exchange for showing up, no, no it's in all seriousness, this is maybe the hardest part and it really is because.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You are with people that you know intimately almost all day, every day, when you're at home, you talk about work when you're at work, you talk about home, and this has really been a challenge for us to be able to separate ourselves and, in fact, you know my brother and I just had.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: a really great conversation about the importance of not tying your own.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: value your own words to the success of the business so there's a couple of things that we try to do, and my middle daughter her name is grace.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And she's the enforcer of guys it's thanksgiving it's Sunday dinner, you know we're here to watch the bills game, whatever the occasion is so.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: She was so good at enforcing it, but now we don't even try to pull it out or or it, you know it will start she'll say you have one more minute to talk about this and then you're done so, we have gotten much better.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: At trying not to talk about business at family functions, we do much better when grace is present or not as good when she's not around because she's you know she's our enforcer.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You race.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Yes, yes, exactly i'm going to let her know you said that um so I have found, personally, I really have have had to try to put down some i'd like to say hard boundaries, but you know when it's your business there's no such thing as truly off the clock or truly not your problem.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: um so you know, one of the things i've struggled with is when do I put an end to my work day and especially now, I work from home more than I ever have.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: it's very easy to continue working when you're at home um when I wake up in the morning I don't check email until i'm ready to be on the clock.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I try not to check sales, you know we have been one of our pop up barbecues out in the field, I try not to hit refresh if it's not during my work day.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And so I think you know, recognizing as a family, that we need that break away that we need to exist as people who are independent of the business has been helpful.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And then also trying to model, what I want to see, and the rest of the family um so that I can have those those times, where.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know I just have to be off the clock for the rest of the night I have other things that I have to pay attention to it really is is challenging and it takes a lot of discipline.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Okay, you mentioned something about talking boundaries, and I think that's such a great word I have a.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We did a book club that are for the family business book club and we had Melissa Mitchell glitch on who wrote a book called in the company of family how to thrive when business is personal and it's all about boundaries so there's one free gift for you i'll try.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I wrote it down.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And i'll send you a link to her book, but she was wonderful.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And really just you know she joined she was grace grace gracious enough to join us for the book club and just some great insights and talking about boundaries.

 

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Michael Palumbos: differently, and you know, the one thing that i'll share with you that I think would be helpful for everybody is she talked about boundaries as a gate.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And the gate being we want to let the good stuff in and keep the bad stuff out and that was really helpful when you start to think about those things as as we're doing these pieces and it just nice conversation with the family, so in the book that I think you'll find it interesting.

 

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Michael Palumbos: When when we're dealing with some families and if I asked a question that you say you know that we're not going down that road, please you know that's a okay.

 

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Michael Palumbos: um some family businesses that i've you know worked with cab non family members that have ownership of the business, but no longer work there is that ever happened through the years in.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Sure, my father has a minority business partner who coincidentally just retired, I want to say, maybe in May, after 55 years some odd years with the company.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: My father used to like to say that his father phil is that his business partners name sales Father dropped him off and he was 16 and forgot to come back and pick them up.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And phil ended up marrying my father's cousin so he's you know fat family and Jason wasn't born into the family, but when you marry a cousin and then you put 55 years in you, you have attained, you know, a certain level of.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Family, you know family status, I guess, for for lack of a better term so phil is a minority older minority owner and has begun a very well deserved.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Retirement in May, but for all intents and purposes, though he holds on to the ownership has really stepped completely away from any any of the day to day he's he's very at peace.

 

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Michael Palumbos: it's Those are the kinds of things that you know it's like it gets to a certain point, and in your family's probably getting really close to this where it's at that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Third, to fourth generation there's enough, you know it's your business is an asset, and if we have.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, different family entities owning that it's like Okay, how do I, how do I juggle this and how do I, how do I put that together, because for many of us, the business does become the largest asset.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That we have and is we're juggling that value in terms of fair and equal right in terms that we that we throw around it gets difficult so.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know that's where you know, having some governance and how do we make decisions as the ownership group, how do we make decisions as the you know the family group.

 

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Michael Palumbos: starts to sense and that's yeah I just think it's I think it takes practice, one of the things.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That i've that i've come to realize is that, like you said you know you thought you're coming here and i'm going to give you all the answers to figure it all out.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And that's that's really fair because I think I think that's what a lot of people are hoping for, is just sprinkle the magic fairy dust make this all happen, you know work but, at the end of the day, it's no different than.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Our physical fitness and our mental fitness if we want to keep our mental fitness we might need to you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, do some mental exercise, we need to stay positive, we need to might need to talk to a therapist every once in a while to unload some things if we want our physical fitness, we need to go to the gym, we need to have the trainer or whatever it is.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And I think when it comes to family business and family dynamics it's the same thing it's getting in front of a little bit and having some practice about how do we communicate, how do we talk, how do we make these decisions together.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You are 100% right, and there is such a need for education and family businesses, and if I could give one piece of advice to family businesses.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I don't care if you're on the first generation, and you have a 16 year old that you think is going to take over for you start that planning start that education right now.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: don't wait until you're you're over the 60 year mark like we did and it's understandable right it's not have any negligence.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: What one day you're selling eggs and the next day you're this for generation family business with different concerns and we're you know we're not.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: we're not business people per se, we just want to cook some chicken and you know, be able to send our kids to college and retire at the end of the day.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But there is so much more to it than that, and I know that you don't need me to tell you so i'm third generation and the statistics on a.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: family business successfully passing from second generation so third, let alone beyond our abysmal and I I carry that responsibility with me, I mean that's something that I, I think about a lot, and so I know I started to get to a point, maybe about three years ago.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know where our business was doing.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Really, well, I mean very, you know very well known, it was vibrant it was it was it was I don't know quite that I want to say it was thriving because you'll see in a minute here, we were very strong but we had kind of plateaued.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And plateau is not necessarily a bad thing in some respects.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But I knew enough to know that you can't sustain a plateau in business forever.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And that we really need to talk about needed to start to think about what is the next evolution of chabad is going to look like and we need to be proactive and we need to start thinking about all the things you just mentioned, because they are very real concerns, because it is not.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Again preaching to the choir, it is not that the third generation comes in, and the third generation is just an idiot.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And doesn't know you know how to keep selling the chicken so sometimes you know, sometimes that happens.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But in the education, I have given myself, I can see how the way my grandparents set a business up has caused ripple effects that I am now dealing with.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know 4040 5060 years later, and again it's all innocent and unintentional because I hate to sound glib we just didn't know any better, you know at the time.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And there is so much education.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: That family businesses need that they don't get they are not usually full of mbas you know, maybe when you get when you get a few generations down and you're priming somebody coming you know down the pipeline.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: We are not, you know we're not accountants we're not lawyers, we are not psychologists, you know you kind of said that you know if.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: If you need help you talk to a therapist and I think in our earlier conversations I mentioned, we work with a family business consultants and that is really the scope of his work.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: is to kind of delve into the psychology behind a family business and people who are not in the family business might listen to that, I think.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Why do you why do you need something like that, but it is, I I have made this recommendation.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Everyone should have a family business consultants who specializes in psychology on speed dial or on retainer even if your family gets along great which ours does we had very good.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Relationships but family relationships and business relationships when those overlap, there are some friction there and we are certainly not like I said we could check him we don't know a lot about psychology.

 

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Michael Palumbos: i'm a big fan of star trek based on here to tell you, when you're right so it's you know i'm an engineer i'm a doctor i'm not an.

 

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engineer.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I want chicken farmer.

 

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cook chicken you.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Love at it.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: again.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I have gift number two for you okay I didn't realize that we were going to be doing.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Getting gay but it's a gift number two is you shared the statistics about family business and the third generation and it's about 3% make it to the to the third generation.

 

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Michael Palumbos: According to that you know, to the numbers, I want to take that and just allow you to take a little weight off your shoulders.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I think it's a misnomer that we push that number so hard on people and the reason why is because if you just look at non family businesses, most of them don't make it for 60 years.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Sure, and so what we, I think I think there's two pieces here that we should be talking about that their hand in glove they're not separate.

 

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Michael Palumbos: When we talk about that 3% statistic, we also need to be talking about the success of the business, you know, maybe it was sold and for the health of the business, a friend of mine wrote a book.

 

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Michael Palumbos: called every family's business called Tom dean's highly recommended he's got 12 questions that are in there, that really help families to discuss, you know the business and what to do with him, one of the things he says is that we should always be prepared to sell.

 

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Michael Palumbos: When we should be optimizing the business, so that if an investor wanted to buy us we're attractive to an investor.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And that may be what's best for the family and remember what you see, I think you said it earlier, where it was talking about, you know different people in the family have different passions and I don't remember getting that was you know you said it differently, but I think that's into.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That, I think the business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And the family, the family's number one concern is to make sure that everybody.

 

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Michael Palumbos: is doing something that their love that they love to do and.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yeah.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so it.

 

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Michael Palumbos: may be time to sell the business at one point, because we just don't have anybody in the family that that's their passion to.

 

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Michael Palumbos: run and it was awesome and it's not anybody's fault if it doesn't you know if we don't go there, we should just be happy for what we've done.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Sure, and that's you know i'm that's The thing that I think probably a lot of families are afraid to look at right, because if they're the one that sells.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And even though they might be the one that made a ton of money off the sell the business it's almost look looked at, you know, like quitting or they gave up or you know and and.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You and I have talked a bit too right, I may have mentioned to you before like this is i'm at home, right now, this is my grandparents house, this House has been in the family, for a long time so.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: my grandparents, you know when they started that little poultry farm down there you know they were here in this House, my father grew up here so there's a lot of legacy we have a very large family, as I have mentioned there's a lot of legacy.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, and again I feel the weight of that that doesn't mean you know for me i'm okay with that, because this is where where I want to be.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But it is very easy for me, you know I have other you know, friends and colleagues and family businesses so it's very easy for me to just imagine.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: A scenario where that is just not the case where somebody feels pressured to carry that legacy forward and it's not really in their heart, and so what I had to do for myself.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And this is part of the journey our business has been going on last few years, some of this journey is.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: i'm not a food person and you're never going to catch me ordering Barbecue out in a restaurant unless i'm trying to experiment, to see what somebody else is doing to give you know view business development ideas.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: that's not what i'm passionate about.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: i'm very passionate about my family for sure, but I really started to discover that my passions were in business development organizational development, and so I had to find a way right, we have to walk this tight tightrope between making sure this job is something that fulfills me professionally.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But maintaining the identity of that business.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: and making sure that it doesn't become about me because it's really not it's about the overall success of the business, but you have kind of have to marry those two together right because.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I can't do my best work as a business leader, if I can't stand getting out of bed and going to work every day and not that I ever did that, but I certainly wanted to make sure.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: That I didn't become that, and so I had to start to say for myself, not just what do I want this business to look like.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: In five years and 10 years and 50 years, what do I want my role to be here and I had to recognize that it was okay for me to have career goals and career aspirations and career needs separate from the business.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And that, like I said, it is a tightrope to figure out.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: How to walk that but I mean we don't want to be boring right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Of course, of course, and look, you know it's you've said two things that I want to, I want to circle back and comment on one is, we have a big family and we talked about legacy and not everybody's involved in the business but I guarantee that everybody has a feeling about the business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yep emotional connection, and so one of the things that we have learned.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Because I i'm i'm blessed I have mentors abound throughout the world who have helped coach me, and you know, working with family businesses, one of the ways that we have found.

 

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Michael Palumbos: His family philanthropy.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so the watch would have just like you're saying you know I may not be passionate about the business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: But i'm passionate about what my grandparents built and the impact that they had in the Community So how do we continue doing that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Well, start the show about a family foundation and anybody, regardless of what your other passions are can be part of that, if you so choose.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so there's some really neat pieces that we've you know we've helped other families to put together the grandparent grandchild philanthropy project family philanthropy and that's what we have the other piece that we've learned.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Is that family philanthropy can actually done properly, in my opinion.

 

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Michael Palumbos: With you know all the right reasons, all the right stuff family philanthropy can help to develop the entrepreneurs and the next generation.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Great.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You can start at five years old, talking about who would you like to give to ny and that's critical thinking.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We can have those we could ask a five year old or a six year old to say, please tell the family, why you think that serving that you know that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: organization would be wonderful and now you've got this five or six year old that drew a picture and cram.

 

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Michael Palumbos: is talking to 20 people to say why he thinks or she thinks this is important and now you're building leadership and character and communication skills so there's.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I, I believe the philanthropy can be the sandbox for flint and for entrepreneurship and the end and if not, if not for the family business it's still developing character.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So there I love that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: There is one piece we love doing that I when I love the letters that I get back or I just got some crazy and you know gift, you know donation things that were that the grandmother.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: didn't agree.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I can't believe how well this works i'm.

 

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Michael Palumbos: i'm wonderful the other one, I want to connect you that you said it you set me up perfectly for this and I just want to say thank you.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: you're welcome you're.

 

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Michael Palumbos: On a roll right now where we talked about, we talked about physical training before and we know that if you do physical training, but if you ignore your core.

 

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Michael Palumbos: it's not good okay well every business entity forget what you do forget the chickens forget the bbq forget all that just the the people within the business.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Are the business right, what is your core purpose, and can it can we have a shared core purpose amongst everybody on the team.

 

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Michael Palumbos: For you that's what drives us to get out of bed, what are the shared core values that are alive and well in our business right now as we're sitting here today.

 

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Michael Palumbos: How do we define them what, how can we, you know what are the actions delivered by how do we connect our core purpose our core values, our core competencies and the big hairy audacious goal.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know and right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And when you connect those pieces, all of a sudden it's not what you know what you do is chicken Barbecue.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Why you do what you do is different and that's you could have for chicken Barbecue places and four different corners.

 

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Michael Palumbos: and the one that has a core purpose and core values that is connected will be the one and all the people have the actions to live by around that and we've we've drilled those values we've drilled that core purpose in what happens is the people that don't like that go away.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: it's bad natalie.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know move them away love that are attracted that organization will outperform the other three, on the other corners.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So we are actually in the process of doing that now, and we are hitting the little bit of the pain point that you just said, you know people are kind of self selecting that our organization is not the best fit for them anymore and that's Okay, and you know you know, we wish you well.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Unfortunately, maybe the best time to to, and we might have talked about this before, but the best time to do organizational development, maybe wasn't during the global pandemic with national Labor shortage, or maybe that was the best time.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But I wanted before we because we can talk about staff, you know whole rest of our hour together, but before we move away from this, I want to talk a little bit about that brand differentiation right because we we started to work with an outside consultant, because we really were.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know it's a hard thing to do to to be objective and so the first time around, we kind of went through this exercise, and we had done a little mini bit of this exercise on our own, we had sat down with maybe.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, we have a staff now it's shrunk a little you know, maybe about 70 or 80 we were approaching 100.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: peak but we sat down with maybe about 30 people and we asked them a lot of questions to kind of start to draw out, you know what are those core values and then, when we moved to the consultants.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: There was a tradition or a legacy piece that kind of didn't make the transition transition from those conversations with our employees to the conversation with the consultants.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And we talked about it a group, as a group and I, you know I kind of called it out, and I said, you know this piece.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: is missing, and we need to kind of put it back and so he challenged us, and he said okay tell me what traditional or legacy looks like to you go and go home and think about it, and come back to me because I really felt.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: As we said, there are plenty of chicken Barbecue companies around, and we are so fortunate.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: To be as successful as we are, and I don't say that to take anything away, there are many other successful chicken Barbecue operations we're certainly not the only one, but there is something about Chavez, there are a few things about Chavez, but the one I want to focus on is.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So we went through these few weeks, where we were supposed to be doing our homework and thinking and in that time someone that I know who had lost a parents.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Recently, you know, I was expressing my condolences and we were catching up on, we were chatting and we had gotten to the end of the conversation, you know we were going to go our separate ways and he started to tell me about their picnics.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Throughout the years that had involved about us their family functions that headed involved about is how much his father loves about it, and he started to cry because this was such.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, they were such important memories to him and I went back and I told the story to the family business or the excuse me, the business consultants and I said.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I don't want this to be the example of the story, because obviously this family suffered a loss, but this the emotion tied to this because she does is part.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: of so many gatherings of so many traditions, you know that church that has the picnic every year.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: The family reunion every year the you know the firewall chicken Barbecue every year, or maybe you're grilling on home at home in your backyard and it's what you do with your neighbors every fourth of July weekend there's an emotional component.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And you talk about core purpose, you know, ours is kind of to gather people together around a table to build Community around a table food is so important.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know across cultures across millennia food is so important in social gatherings.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And I don't know how it is where you are in buffalo we are diehard about a few things the bills, is one of them, you know, no matter what.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, big city of good neighbors helping you know shoveling out your neighbor's driveway to get that four feet of snow and our food holy cow, are we absolutely bonkers for our our buffalo brands in western New York.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And, and that is what is so fulfilling to me and to us and what we recognized was really just a key part of our identity is we are so fortunate to be a part.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: of some of the most special moments in people's lives, their weddings their baptisms their first birthdays their graduations how lucky, are we to be able to be associated.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: With those times and some people might think get over yourself it's just food, and it really is just food, but we wouldn't get stories like that that I got from my friends, it really was just about the phone.

 

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Michael Palumbos: yeah 1000 thousand percent I you know I share the story you guys have a whole foods in buffalo.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Yes, okay so whole foods started in Austin Texas, and the year that in I don't know the whole story, but i'm going to give the abbreviated what I know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: The year they started, you know they were trying to bring wholesome good organic foods from the different farmers from the you know, to the Community place instead of it being a different.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Farm stands throughout the Community, it was just that was what they were really thinking you know how do we have an outlet for the farmer, how do we have a place for the consumer.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Austin gets flooded their store is flooded they had leveraged everything they're like we're done we're good you know and.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Their core purpose was so strong and they shared it with so many people why they were doing like if i'm not mistaken, today, you can go into whole foods and asked about their core purpose and core values.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And many of the employees will know what they're what they're saying, but back then, what what inspired was volunteerism.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And people they went, you know john mackey and his partner at the time was renee I forget her name but they go to the go to the store and there's people with MOPs and buckets and cleaning supplies.

 

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Michael Palumbos: They were farmers, they were customers, they were not.

 

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Michael Palumbos: It just wasn't supposed to happen, like that we're just a business we're just you know doing that that stuff but it's if you take a Patagonia you take a whole foods you take a shower data.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And you guys, you know you're all about creating family moments creating those wonderful gathering.

 

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Michael Palumbos: pete you know things you what you do is the bbq that's how you do that, but why you exist, has nothing to do here's where i'm going with this.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Is you can start if you talked about what's the next generation what's the the what a shame, that is, you know, do I don't know but I bet you it'll all be about family.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I bet you it'll all be about gathering and there'll be something that comes out of that because that's.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know what you do our core purpose is to inspire change that's why we have this podcast we don't you know we don't make money on the podcast matter of fact, it costs money to do this.

 

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Michael Palumbos: More than anything else, we have not figured out the you know ooh you know we've gotten 30 clients out of it nope.

 

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Michael Palumbos: doesn't work that way, but I want to inspire change one people to hear things and you shared some things today that will be helpful to somebody whether it's tomorrow or five years from now, and I thank you for for that and that's.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know, one of the things that we did just we had a working on the business day on Friday, with my team and and what we talked about was.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Our core purpose is to inspire change, we all agree upon that but they couldn't connect what they were doing in their jobs to how that was working.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so we spent a good two hours going through some examples of how you know your job.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Was inspiring change and helping these families to do these wonderful things and to a TEE everybody was like i'm so glad we spent the time doing that that really helps me understand why i'm doing it and i'll give you one other example real quick.

 

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Michael Palumbos: JFK was going through NASA when they were going through you know, putting the man on the moon, and he was asking people to what do you do i'm a mathematician i'm a physicist and.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know i'm a project engineer and goes up to the janitor and say what do you do, and he says well i'm helping to put a man on the moon.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Right yes that's what we're.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Exactly the on the ownership, no matter what your role is in the company that everyone has ownership and is moving toward a common purpose yeah it almost makes them.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Like.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Like it's their destiny to be successful right, how can that much momentum and that strong of a vision fail.

 

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Michael Palumbos: it's last piece on that is I just had a friend of mine that I met through another organization she changed jobs and the post that she put up on linkedin.

 

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Michael Palumbos: said I am so happy I find you know I found my home, I have wanted to work for ABC company for years and I finally got in and i've interviewed.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Three times with them and was rejected three times and this last time I interviewed I asked them, you know what I was missing.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And they said, well, you really need you know this type of a certification for the kinds of roles that you're doing so she went out and got the certification, on her own called back the person that said no, the last time and said, I have my certification Where would you like me know.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And I haven't been to her.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And that's the connection that, so what you're doing is perfect and right and during the pandemic, I think it means more because, and you know I tell people you know put that into the top of your head.

 

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Michael Palumbos: here's what our purposes here's what you know our core values are come join the team things like this and then continue finding ways to do that.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Man, you know.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: that's a really excellent point and I think like I said we're kind of coming down the homestretch of finalizing everything and once we do have them finalized I think they absolutely belong.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: In our ads because we kind of talked about the self selection before hopefully that would make the interview process.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: easier because.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: People who look at that and think.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: No, you know I that that all sounds silly and cheesy i'm not going to apply there and you're going to attract the people who who share those values, you know who shares that sense of commitment, we have to the Community to the people around us.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And now that's a great suggestion we're going to do that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: One of the things that happened for me, is when I started to do that I realized i'm not hiring 10,000 people.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I just need to find you know.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: One guy.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Right buffalo is you have millions of people there in the workforce, you know it's not you know, hundreds of thousands in the workforce right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: There are definitely i'm those that are there many that share the same core purpose and core values as Chavez does, and you will find them easily when you get to the point when you finish up feel free gift number, here we go gift number three or four whatever it is um.

 

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Michael Palumbos: We have.

 

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Michael Palumbos: A higher in the process that we have utilized that helps to connect the core values and core purpose in the interview process and be happy to share that with.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Oh great.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I would love that I know i'm sending a terrible example now everyone who's on your show is going to say what am I getting for my deaths.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know I never thought about it that way we're gonna have to will will will will continue looking for ways to help each person as we're going through this stuff appreciate that helps me actually um what else, what else, where do we go from here you've got your daughter oldest is.

 

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Michael Palumbos: In the business right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Now, and so tell us about her background and did you get you know what were the rules to come to work for the.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: For the business, did you have we.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: We haven't had any rules really it's very a very open interview process now if your if your family and so i'm Alex is 27 you can tell you're getting old when you have to start thinking about how old your.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: kids are.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But kind of went through a similar journey, you know started started in high school did something else for a little while came back and I felt that Alex didn't spend enough time away from the business doing other things, and there was a period of probably a year or two.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Where we would really go back and forth, and I would almost be aggressive.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Like trying to push the bird back out of the nest like you need to do something else you need to do something else I don't want you to discover when you're 30 or 40 that this wasn't for you.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And finally, she said to me mom whenever we have this conversation what you're telling me is you don't trust my judgment.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And you don't trust my judgment of myself and you don't believe that I know where I want to be, and that was really eye opening for me.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And part of me was still like Okay, you still should have gone to work someplace else but we haven't had that conversation, since then, and that was that was a number of years ago, because I thought you know.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Maybe i'm trying to be the parent, you know because I went through my own phase where I was like.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: This is what I should have done, you know was there something else for me that would have been a better fit and that was kind of when I was going through my, I guess, for lack of a better term I.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Mid career crisis, you know kind of thing so maybe I was doing some projecting there, and so what we started to do next after that was kind of what we talked about before.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Every employee I don't care, who they are has.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Their own unique skills, abilities gifts that they can bring to your position and it doesn't matter if they're washing dishes or cooking chicken Everyone has something to contribute, that is special about them are strong about them and so when Alex and I started to do together is.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: To really start to work on what Alex is strengths were, and you know I call it the Kathleen show about a venn diagram right three circles.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: What are your strengths and abilities, what are your skills, what are you good at what are your interests, what do you like to do because that's not necessarily a perfect circle there and then the third circle is what do we need.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know what does the company mean out of you out of somebody and can we try to kind of see where those circles come together.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: and create a position there for you, because, as I said earlier, I went through this journey right, I had to make this or make sure that this was going to be fulfilling for me career wise.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And I certainly wanted to do the same thing for her why wouldn't I want to make sure she ended up in an area where she was strong.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Why would I want to give her a job with things she was going to struggle, because she didn't love them and she wasn't good at them and that's not what she wanted to do.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: If if this child of mine is has the potential to be the fourth generation.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And will be the person who's planning for the fifth or the sixth generation why don't I want to set them up for success now so that doesn't mean Alex doesn't have to sometimes do things.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: That Alex doesn't particularly care, for you know it's a family business we're a small company.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Sometimes you got to be on the front line sometimes you have to be the boots on the ground and none of us, you know we kind of have a family model there's no such thing as not our job, it is all our job, it is all our responsibility.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: No one is ever going to care about it as much as we care because it's not their job to care, you know if if they care as much as we care that's a problem because we should be caring up here not not here.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So yeah we have kind of gone on this journey together of what do you like to do what are you good at and and how can we marry those things to do what's going to be best for the company so again.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: i'm still a parent.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: So I still try to have those those teachable moments, and I try to have teachable moments with my whole staff, but I especially with Alex try to share my own experiences, not the children necessarily learn from their parents experiences, but also.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Something that the family business consultant has helped me with is to really be a strong model for what I want to see and others and that's what I tried to do with her.

 

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Michael Palumbos: love it I.

 

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Michael Palumbos: really enjoyed our conversation because we, as you talk things come up for me.

 

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Michael Palumbos: So so two things that that came out of that one I have noticed, through the years of working with family businesses that every now and again.

 

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Michael Palumbos: not always but every now and again, there is a kid that just the core purpose and the core values of the family are so ingrained they couldn't imagine themselves working someplace else and I, you know, have a.

 

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Michael Palumbos: client that's a cabbage geneticist and he used to go around cornell Grad.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And he used to go around with his grandfather, you know.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Who would place plants and create new varieties and do stuff and then he went to school for it, you know he started that when he was a.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know 789 years old, following his grandfather around in the greenhouses and doing stuff so he just couldn't that was just him, it was just perfect and so maybe it falls into that line number one um there was something else that you said it was oh man I lost it um.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I write them down because.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I know it's I should have yeah I think it was just the fact that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: What you're doing in terms of your three circles and is just no different than the core purpose and the core values in your company and what you want to do, but you try to do that on the individual level as well, which I think is just fabulous.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Oh that's what I was gonna say every family's business some of those conversations between the parent and child.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know I think are really, really helpful or between generations are really helpful I think grabbing those and I will.

 

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Michael Palumbos: i'll remember to send that over to you i'm a cheat sheet for those questions that i'll share with you, but I do think the book is worth.

 

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Michael Palumbos: You know grabbing and going through it's on you know many, many family business consultants have utilized that book it's a it's you know it's a story it's a parable to families doing it so it's an easy read but.

 

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Michael Palumbos: But i'll pull the questions out of there one of the things that I loved is having your daughter or the next generation who's in that level do their own SWOT analysis.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And you do a SWOT analysis.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And if you do them separately individually each year and then compare because what's natural is, as you get older you'll want to take less risk.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And as they're coming up they're going to want to take more so finding that happy medium to say where can we where can we go with this.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And then the other piece, that was the other one is I wrote a book your family legacy and one of the things that i'm most proud of is this conversation I talked about what I call the parent transition.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And the parent transition is you know when they're under the age of X it's different for every kid.

 

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Michael Palumbos: under the age of 13 you need to be the parent, you need to set the boundaries, you need to say no, you need to grab them when they're about to fall and you need to protect them somewhere between 13 and 30.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I don't know again it's different for every child it's, we need to become the that coach that mentor, we need to not do for them, we need to make that transition, not every parent is good at making that transition.

 

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Michael Palumbos: But then there becomes a time when they don't even need us and we may still coaching mentor, but what we really need to remember is that once they're over the age of 21 and then you know come to the age of adulthood.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Especially when it comes to the family business if it was anybody else would treat them like a colleague.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Right.

 

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Michael Palumbos: And so that transition that one right there has been really helpful for me i'd love to tell you that I was able to make all of those things work for myself and our family it's been difficult.

 

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Michael Palumbos: it's harder in your own family, I think that helping other people, but.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That one piece, and just realizing that mark Zuckerberg created Facebook before he was out of college.

 

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and

 

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Michael Palumbos: It doesn't mean that our kids going to be mark Zuckerberg, but they are grown up human beings, and they are full Lee capable of being colleagues of ours as well.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Right and that's you know you're touching on something that's that's a challenge right if that's a challenge and I found this own personal journey and it's only happened in the last couple of years.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: It was transformative for me to start thinking of my father, as my boss, and not my dad.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Because what I realized, looking back is.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I won't say how old I was but i'm a i'm well into adulthood, and even though I was a well into adulthood adult.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I was acting like a spoiled brat at times with my dad because I wanted my way why didn't you want to listen his opinion was dumb.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, he doesn't have any confidence in me and I was acting childish, and some of that is you know his half.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But I know it is hard to start to look at our you know our relatives as colleagues but flipping the switch in my head.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And having that humility and and thinking you know.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: stop talking to him that way or stop being frustrated with him, he is your boss, and you would never treat a Boston another organization and not to say that I was treating my father poorly at all, we have an excellent relationship, but I would get a little pouty.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: When I couldn't have my way and I didn't really understand and I just had to accept.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: This is going to sound a little a little counterintuitive I just had to accept that sometimes, because he said so.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Even though it's saying that's a look at the dad sometimes because he said so um is is the end of it and I had to learn to to carry forward.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: If he said no, it was no to my direct reports, you know to things like that we're not doing it and not to throw him under the bus and say, well, I want to do it, but dad won't let me guys.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: I talked to doubt about it talk to Peter one is what we call them, I talked to Peter one.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: He wants to do this, this is what we're going to do we've talked a lot about disagree and commit and my organization in the in the last year and then that's the way it is and what helped me.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Make that switch with my father was Bob prolly the family business consultant, said to me.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Think about your relationships both ways think about your relationship with your own child and how you want to act and how do you think it makes Alex feel if you do a B and C and now look backwards, you know.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: To to your relationship with your father and looking at that relationship there with dad and this relationship here with Alex really just helped me kind of.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: grow up in a way, you know, not that I was mature or childish or anything like that.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: But I realized that I had to start looking at people lasses family and have had this have to be more more about business.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Because, who in the world wants to really work with their family or.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Their you know don't get me wrong, I am so fortunate again we have strong family, you know foundational relationships I love my dad i'm very much a daddy's girl.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: And Alex and I are very close and so that benefits us, and that makes the business stronger but yes, sometimes there are challenges to having those kinds of relationships it's really hard to.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: You know, like counsel or or or write up if you ever had to know somebody that you're going to see it dinner on Sunday.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Right um but no, I consider myself to be very, very fortunate to have been born born into this, I have certainly worked for it, but I was born into this wonderful family and this wonderful opportunity.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Even though i've said I carry the weight of carrying this legacy forward that my father built that my uncle's hip belt, you know that many people who came before me have built man who would want to do anything else, I feel so lucky to have such an opportunity.

 

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Michael Palumbos: I love it I love it so if anybody wanted to get Ahold of you, what is the Web address for sure that is.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Sure just chavez.com.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: Even put it into Google.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: yeah I was gonna say even if you put it into Google and spell it wrong, I promise you you're going to find it ah Ay Ay ke TT calm.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Perfect Kathleen this has been wonderful, I have a funny feeling that somewhere in the next 24 months or three years we're going to, we need to have you on next week, but you know that's not the way that it works, but I would love to have you on again.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Is your journey and keep doing this well you know who else was in the chicken business that I don't know if you've ever get had a chance to listen, but go and check out mitzi purdue.

 

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Kathleen Chiavetta: horse produce.

 

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Michael Palumbos: That would be that would be a fun one for you to hear some of her stories, I think.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Great I really, really truly appreciate everything that you've shared today.

 

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Michael Palumbos: Thank you everyone for spending time with Kathleen and I, my name is Michael Columbus with family wealth and legacy in Rochester New York, and we would love for you to hit that subscribe button, so that.

 

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Michael Palumbos: When the next episodes Come on, you don't miss one have a great day, everybody take care.

If you’re a family business or a family business consultant and want to be on the show, share your story and help other family businesses, send us an email to producer@thefamilybizshow.com or fill out a contact form here!

*not affiliated with Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp.

Michael Palumbos is a registered representative of Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp. Securities and investment advisory services offered through Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp., a broker/dealer (member SIPC) and registered investment advisor. Insurance offered through Lincoln affiliates and other fine companies. Family Wealth & Legacy, LLC is not an affiliate of Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp. Lincoln Financial Advisors Corp. and its representatives do not provide legal or tax advice. You may want to consult a legal or tax advisor regarding any legal or tax information as it relates to your personal circumstances.

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