Transcript

Michael Palumbos (00:46.732)

Welcome everybody to the Family Biz Show. I am your host, Michael Palumbos with Family Wealth and Legacy. 

Michael Palumbos (00:54.138)

And today I have my very favorite special guest, James Hughes, Jay Hughes, who without Jay's writing this podcast wouldn't exist. wouldn't have the, I would not have been as curious about families and families and business and family wealth if it wasn't for having read Family Wealth Keeping It in the Family so many years ago. So welcome Jay, thank you. 

James Hughes Jr. (01:24.204)

Michael, this is a fun, fun opportunity. Thank you for inviting me. 

Michael Palumbos (01:28.97)

So today, before we jump into today, one of the things I just, for people that don't know you, and because it is, every podcast stands alone, tell us your background about how you started working with families. I just want to remind people so that they understand your connection and how this came about. 

James Hughes Jr. (01:50.862)

Michael, I was a young lawyer in 1967. I'm not going to go into a long bio, I promise. And found myself in a law firm where my dad was the senior partner, one of them, and there were three departments. There was the commercial department, the litigation department, and the trust and states department. Since there was already nepotism by my joining that firm, 

James Hughes Jr. (02:21.518)

and he ran the commercial department. I'd done litigation. I didn't like it. So I went in the trust and the state's department and realized six months in that I probably would have left the law, but for the fact that the trust and the state's department meant I had my own clients six months into my profession. Individuals and families, I never looked back. 

Michael Palumbos (02:49.934)

And then there was a point in your career, if I remember correctly, where you spent an awful lot more time coaching families through the years. What was that transition like? Why did you make that transition? 

James Hughes Jr. (03:09.71)

Our dear friend, Matt Wesley, wrote a wonderful paper called Culture, Eat, Structure for Breakfast. Most young lawyers, Michael, in the first 10, 15 years of their careers in the trust in the states, or we now call it private client department, are learning their trade and they do a lot of technical work, what we call structural work. I did that. I learned my lessons and 

James Hughes Jr. (03:39.352)

But I wasn't very interested in it. What and to be clear and clear to me that was that the culture question was a family seeking to flourish. Was it enhancing the individual journeys of happiness of its members? Were all the boats rising? Whatever the way we want to think about it. I thought this is really interesting. Whereas the technical side really didn't interest me at all. 

James Hughes Jr. (04:08.27)

So I found myself further and further out of the profession. Not because I didn't love being a lawyer. I did. I'm a sixth generation lawyer in my family. what I found was that more and more, instead of individual client or maybe a couple, whole families were reaching out to me. 20 people, 40 people, 50 people, sometimes 200 people even. 

James Hughes Jr. (04:35.808)

I thought this system's work is really interesting. How do you develop a system that supports 40 people's lives, not financially, but emotionally? How do you grow their human and intellectual self, their social capacity, their spiritual capacity? So I just found myself one day discovering that as a lawyer in New York State, where you are, 

James Hughes Jr. (05:05.358)

I couldn't represent a family. I only could represent a person and then get waivers. Again, I don't want to get into the detail. But I discovered that day that the law left me. 

James Hughes Jr. (05:24.556)

because the law didn't give me what my clients wanted from me. So I thought, well, OK, I love this work. I love the idea of a flourishing family being the first building block of a flourishing society, as Aristotle said, 2400 years ago. I thought I'm going to do that. So I still have my law license. I just don't practice law and haven't for a long time. 

James Hughes Jr. (05:54.19)

I like being a lawyer from the standpoint of trying to help grow flourishing communities, which I think is lawyer's job. So in a nutshell, I found myself one day with a law leaving me. 

Michael Palumbos (06:09.378)

love it. I love it. again, I haven't heard the story put that way. So that was, I appreciate it and I'm glad I asked. Today, if we go to your website and remind me the web address is at jamesehughes.com. 

James Hughes Jr. (06:27.362)

as 

James Hughes Jr. (06:27.887)

jamesehughes.com, yes. 

Michael Palumbos (06:30.598)

And there's reflections on there. so today we're going to be talking about the reflections that you've had on the grandchild grandparent philanthropy as an element in a system of family governance. And I, I apologize, but I, I have kind of shortened and I call it the grandparent grandchild philanthropy project. And I, and I just, and then I think this is such a powerful 

Michael Palumbos (07:01.624)

piece that and just everything in this paper resonated with me when I heard it. And when I've introduced it to people, many have said, this is great. And I'll be honest, you know, but many have said this is great, but then they let it sit on the shelf and they forget to do anything with it. Or I've got another way of doing it. And when the first grandmother and grandfather 

Michael Palumbos (07:29.28)

started this project with their grandchildren. She took the white paper and I said, would you like any help? And she goes, nope, I got this. She was just so excited. And one of the things that she did, and you'll get a kick out of this, I want to share this right away, is she created the donor application fund, how they were going to do that. 

Michael Palumbos (07:53.248)

And her grandchildren at the time were seven and nine and there was four of them. So two sevens and two nines from different kids. And she did it with all of them and she made them fill it out in crayon. She goes, she goes, I'm doing that part for me because I want to be able to look back. want them to be in crayon. so that I, and just an amazing thing. I'm ahead of myself because people don't understand what the, 

Michael Palumbos (08:22.37)

grandchild, grandparent philanthropy work is. So let's dive into that. I guess, how did this start for you? Where did this come from? 

James Hughes Jr. (08:36.641)

Well, Michael, think when your first grandchild is born, the Hindus, a great teacher of mine, Hindu teacher, said to me, Jay, when your first grandchild is born, you become free to spend the rest of your life in the way that you think best serves you because you've completed parenting and other aspects. 

James Hughes Jr. (09:04.14)

So when I had my first grandchild, I thought, well, I'm sort of free now. This my friend taught me this. I'm going to try it out. But what he didn't tell me was that, of course, grandparents and grandchildren have a natural affinity. Now, I'm sure that some people are going to be a little offended by what I'm going to say, but the Chinese have a proverb about this and the Chinese proverb is. 

James Hughes Jr. (09:30.35)

that the grandparents and the grandchildren are the natural enemies of the parents. So I have said for years when people ask me, well, how are you as a grandparent? I say I spoil my grandchildren like hell, spoil them like crazy. What? As I said, the parents job is to do whatever they're going to, but I'm going to just spoil them like crazy. So in that spoiling process, 

James Hughes Jr. (09:58.924)

very selfishly—this is really a selfish grandfather. I put my hand up, I'm selfish—I began to think, what would I like to know from them starting around the age of six? 

James Hughes Jr. (10:16.59)

And I thought, how do you engage a grandchild in a conversation? It's a pretty important conversation without it being heavy. You don't want to do that. And so I thought, well, how can I do this? So then I had the idea. 

James Hughes Jr. (10:35.362)

Well, suppose I asked them what they were interested in doing for somebody else. And what kind of an answer would I get? So I started essentially slowly asking them that question, if you if you were going to do something for somebody else, what would you do? Would you choose? What would you do? And I began to get better conversations with my grandchildren. So it wasn't the soccer game wasn't fine and the 

James Hughes Jr. (11:05.186)

dance thing was fine or whatever the activities were. But it's, you know, that's really just surface. When you really ask a person with intention who loves you, so there's a there's a connection, you're going to get some pretty good answers. So I began to think, well, maybe there's something in this. And a lot of the answers were philanthropic answers. That is, well, 

James Hughes Jr. (11:31.246)

I want to help so-and-so. I love fellow man, Bill loves anthropos, I love fellow man. Well, how can I help somebody? So then I thought, I wonder what it would be like for the group of grandchildren. They were then, let's say, about 12 to 6, 12 in that age range, to actually be in that conversation together with their grandmother and I. No parents, you notice, no parents. Sorry, not welcome. 

James Hughes Jr. (11:59.028)

So I thought for one of my birthdays, I'd try this out. So I did. I said to my grandchildren, we were all gathering for a birthday, said, I would like to have two hours with my grandchildren, just us. Also, one of my grand nieces was coming, so she came too. And they said, well, what are you going to do? You is every anxious? I said, I'll tell you exactly what I'm going to do. 

James Hughes Jr. (12:28.332)

I'm going to ask them before they come to write a little paper about something they would like to do to make a gift to someone else and that they will go and visit that organization and then write a little paper as an application as the lady that you were talking about. And of course, the mothers of the six year olds said, I said two sentences. But for the twelve, actually was also a 13 year old. said, I think I'd like a page. 

James Hughes Jr. (12:57.92)

And I said, here's the deal. You come and make an application in front of your other the other grandchildren and grandnies. And I'm pretty sure that we're all going to want to give something to that. And so I'll give an age specific check. That's appropriate age appropriate check. And I said, I'm also going to take that opportunity to tell some stories of mine that I would like them to know. 

James Hughes Jr. (13:25.678)

Michael, that was one of the great birthdays of my whole life. just. It was incredible fun. Now, everybody showed up with a little paper and again, the sixes and sevens and a couple of sentences, the 12s and 13s had a page. They'd all gone to the organization. And you know, which is a really important thing. This is a strange thing I'm going to say, but most people don't know how to ask for something. 

James Hughes Jr. (13:54.764)

And that slows down a lot of really good stuff, because people say, well, if I ask, I'm being selfish. If I ask, I'm not doing what my grandparents told me I should do, be humble. And I mean that. mean, yes, right. Keep a low profile. But you do need to learn to ask. So hidden in this grandparent-grandchild philanthropy and in the process, 

James Hughes Jr. (14:21.344)

is actually young children learning to ask for something in a very safe environment. And then after they asked, and of course, I gave a check to each one that was age appropriate. And by the way, I'm talking about $50 or $100. I'm not talking about some ridiculous sum. It was something that was really $50, Grandpa. Really? wow. know, my goodness. So 

James Hughes Jr. (14:51.32)

But then they had to take the check to the philanthropy. And Michael, the parents, of course, then the parents got involved. They thought this was, they then thought this was wonderful. And they would go with the child, the grandchild, to the philanthropy and actually see the executive director of some zoo. There were two zoos involved. I can't remember what all the things were now, but they actually shook hands with the executive director, presented the check. 

James Hughes Jr. (15:19.774)

and had an experience of somebody saying to them, thank you. That's, again, it's not being grandiose. It's learning to be in connection with human beings in the social context of doing good. And in the meantime, their grandmother and I just had so much fun. 

Michael Palumbos (15:29.559)

No. 

Michael Palumbos (15:45.272)

So that's interesting. that it's helping me paint a picture and understand it. so though you say the grandchildren and grandparents are the natural enemy of the parents, you actually set the parents up to watch their kids do some really incredible things. the family that I was talking about, they're in different States than grandma and grandpa. And the parents were blown away that when they're nine year old, 

James Hughes Jr. (16:07.118)

Sure. 

Michael Palumbos (16:14.54)

you know, son wanted to go to the it was a war aircraft war museum. I'm just telling you know, when they visited it, they same exact experience. He was given a tour. Tell me why you need you know, what are you looking for? Why? You know, 

James Hughes Jr. (16:35.084)

Right? Yes. 

Michael Palumbos (16:36.832)

And so you're teaching things like how to think for themselves, right? Critical thinking skills. The family that I talked about when the applications were made, she made one little change. They have a family meeting every year in the summer that all families come together and the children had to make the request in front of the whole family. 

James Hughes Jr. (16:42.52)

Hmm 

James Hughes Jr. (16:45.55)

Yes. 

James Hughes Jr. (17:03.99)

well, now that's a nice touch. Except then that the parents get to have too much fun. That's not fair. You know, I'm not so sure I'm in fact, I'm teasing. I think it's lovely. you know, it's 

Michael Palumbos (17:21.454)

This is for the grandparents. Yeah, but to your point, when you have enough grandchildren, then they're making that request in front of an audience. Yeah. And that does exactly the same thing. Like I have two grandchildren myself. One is six. And we're just going to be starting this year. And so there is nobody else besides him as he's going through this. So we're going have to figure out a way to. 

James Hughes Jr. (17:32.194)

That's right. 

James Hughes Jr. (17:51.544)

Sure. Well, let me also say that if you have any grand nephews or grand nieces, don't leave them out. And there's a nice, there's another piece of this, Michael, that occurs to me as you were telling your story, which I love, is this. The grandchildren's generation are the first cousins. Why is he saying that? Well, Church Leave to Church Leave Proverbs hanging around. 

Michael Palumbos (17:52.514)

to do that audience. 

James Hughes Jr. (18:19.596)

So, and that probably either comes true or doesn't in the grandchildren or first cousin. That's the same generation. Just think for a moment if first cousins will say that rather than grandchildren, grandchildren, have an experience relatively young together that isn't just going and playing, which they have to do a little work together. are you building subversively? 

James Hughes Jr. (18:49.888)

their capacity to work together. 

James Hughes Jr. (18:54.306)

They say, my cousin Joe is interested in the zoo, and my cousin Sue is interested in Make-A-Wish Foundation. That was one of the things that the kids chose. And they actually went to the Make-A-Wish Foundation and sat in the chair where the child sits. But the point is that they didn't realize that they were learning to ask for something. No, wasn't any pressure. Nobody was telling them, now, this is the lesson. And they didn't realize that they were 

James Hughes Jr. (19:24.418)

hearing each other in a different setting and doing something then together and supporting each other emotionally. So there's a lot of stuff in this that's very human about building community. 

Michael Palumbos (19:40.162)

Yeah. And you're right. know, it's every society has some form of, you know, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves. And some people don't like to talk about it, but at the end of the day, that happens. It's happened in my family. Me and my cousins are not as close because it wasn't intentional. And so all you're saying is instead of allowing entropy to happen, be intentional. 

Michael Palumbos (20:08.523)

about putting those people together. 

James Hughes Jr. (20:10.968)

Yes, and somebody has to be the ringmaster. And who better than the elder generation? 

Michael Palumbos (20:20.398)

So, 

Michael Palumbos (20:20.938)

so much fun. I love that. So now, as your grandchildren got older, and you know, so we have level one, you know, that's 

James Hughes Jr. (20:30.84)

Yes. 

Michael Palumbos (20:31.598)

12 and under kind of, you know, age, but as they, you know, now these grandchildren are moving in to that 12 to 18, 12, you know, what happened? What are you doing with them then? 

James Hughes Jr. (20:46.53)

Well, we are, like all families, having it more difficult to get together because, of geographic dispersion. On the other hand, Zoom, what we're essentially using today, is the best thing for families ever invented. Now, it's not nice what I'm about to say, but the family member who says, you know, 

James Hughes Jr. (21:15.694)

It's just too hard to get there. I'd love to come. I love you. It's just too hard to get there. Is dead on arrival with Zoom. You're stuck. You cannot say that you're not looking in your device 10 times a day and that you don't have an hour or two hours. you to be on Zoom. Yeah. So what we're doing is we are not waiting for the next wedding. 

James Hughes Jr. (21:45.356)

Hopefully not a funeral. We're not waiting till there's some large assembly. What we're doing is using Zoom on a continuing basis every three or four years to convene the group and do the same thing. now lots of people still haven't. I'm surprised about this, Michael, but they really haven't understood how powerful Zoom is. 

James Hughes Jr. (22:14.894)

for getting rid of geography. So everybody understands Zoom is a communication advance, but it's really, I think you'd agree, just on a way with geography. Look at us today. I'm in Aspen, you're in Rochester. I assume Christina's in Rochester, who's helping us, but we have no sense any longer, thank goodness, that we can't just do something together because of geography. It's just gone. 

Michael Palumbos (22:44.782)

It's amazing. I was just coaching business there in Massachusetts. I had their leadership team and the CEO on the call with me. And when they were done, like, I can't believe that we did this much work and we were this productive in a Zoom meeting. 

James Hughes Jr. (23:03.246)

And yet, if anything, people will because and there's another element to it, but I would come back to the philanthropy for a minute. The other thing that's interesting about Zoom is you can actually see everybody face to face, even 30 people. Yeah. Whereas if you're sitting around a table, you can't see 10 of them. no, this isn't this is shh. Listen, tell all the. 

Michael Palumbos (23:25.653)

that's tr- right. 

James Hughes Jr. (23:31.628)

The answer to your question is that regardless of age, this process can be repeated. I wouldn't say every year. I don't think so. But maybe every three four years, it can be repeated. You are getting deeper experience of the oldest ones. The youngest ones are not only participating, they're watching the older ones. They're getting a shared experience. 

James Hughes Jr. (24:01.356)

Now, I am not suggesting that Zoom isn't as perfect. No, face to face when it's possible. Great. But what I'm really saying is don't wait to the grandparents that we're talking to today. Don't wait. Now, one more piece that we haven't really covered quite this much is the grandparents opportunity to tell stories. Stories of 

James Hughes Jr. (24:30.678)

philanthropy that the grandparents have participated in, particularly age-appropriate stories of what they did as children or teenagers themselves with their parents and grandparents, is a wonderful way to tell stories. And also, it gives the grandchildren a sense, gosh, grandpa was 10 years old sometime. Really? 

James Hughes Jr. (25:00.622)

But you know me at 60, you don't know I was over 10. 

Michael Palumbos (25:07.584)

It's very powerful. And then there's that connection piece too. We connect through story at a different level. I remember sitting with my wife's father and he had a really interesting business. And way before me, you know, he sold it when he was in his forties. And so I would just ask questions because I'm, you know, I'm very curious. 

Michael Palumbos (25:37.064)

And I learned things that she had never known. And she's like, how did you know that about my father? I'm well, I just asked. 

James Hughes Jr. (25:44.622)

Yes, but and you, well, you were curious, which was a great gift to him. so this these exchanges are incredibly important to knowing who one is. So I just find that this idea, very simple idea doesn't require a lot of money, doesn't require a lot of organization. It just requires. 

James Hughes Jr. (26:13.943)

an invitation. 

Michael Palumbos (26:15.404)

When you're talking, let me go back to the grant, you know, your conversation, the question you asked them to get to see to open their curiosity to open up their thinking. What was that question again? 

James Hughes Jr. (26:29.634)

What would you like to do for someone else? And what would you do? And the second question is, that's very interesting. What will you do about it? Because we all know that the best of intentions don't get much done. So it's important if I could put it this way, and I often talk to my all age clients about this, they will come and say, Jay, I 

James Hughes Jr. (26:59.754)

I have a great idea. Okay, we play a little bit with it. And I say, so you have an aspiration, which has the word spirit in it. You notice that? And then I say, well, if you have an aspiration, you're bursting a dream. Does it inspire you? That's an interesting question. As we all dream every night, we have aspirations, but do they inspire us? So now it's still spirit in spirit. 

James Hughes Jr. (27:28.758)

And then, of course, for anything good to get done, there has to be a lot of perspiration. So just having the aspiration, that's good. Good to think about others and be connected. The inspiration is I want to do something. I want to make a gift. And then the perspiration is going out and figuring it out. Nice. And then doing it. this is, you know, these are basic things, Michael. There's nothing 

James Hughes Jr. (27:59.127)

peculiar about this. There's nothing technical about it. 

Michael Palumbos (28:02.892)

No, that's the beautiful part about it. It's very simple. even at that level alone, it doesn't mean that families couldn't take it to another level. I think I have some questions. When through the years of doing this, when you introduce this to other families, do you have any favorite stories of what you've heard from other families through the years? 

James Hughes Jr. (28:13.142)

Of 

James Hughes Jr. (28:26.21)

Well, take it from the grandparents side from the first. And because my favorite stories and there are numerous of them is when usually the grandmother thinks this is a good idea. And the grandfather says he's never heard of it. He doesn't really know. Was it really seriously about you? Well, I do love my grand. OK. So what story, darling grandfather, are you going to tell? 

James Hughes Jr. (28:55.38)

I don't know, what do they want to know about me? I'm 16 years old." And then I would say, coaching, your grandchildren want to know—I'm repeating what I said on purpose—whether you were ever 10 years old. Really? Michael, I cannot tell you the extraordinary energy of love that comes when the grandfather and the grandmother are telling the grandchildren about something, let's say that 

James Hughes Jr. (29:24.59)

important in their lives when they were, let's say, 10, 11, 12 years old. That happens over and over and over again. I think from the standpoint of the grandchildren or grand-nephews and nieces, I see that first cousin group as a unit. Watching them watch each other, and very often I'm privileged, I am privileged in the sense that I'm sometimes 

James Hughes Jr. (29:53.806)

there in the background. Because people are little anxious, you're really sure about this, you know, they're a little anxious. Watching the grandchildren look at each other as they're talking, they will never not know, sorry, I've doubled negative, but they will never not know that sibling, that grandchild, that first cousin, the way they did before that person makes his or her presentation. happens every time. It happens every time. 

Michael Palumbos (30:20.142)

That's POP. 

Michael Palumbos (30:23.406)

So powerful. I love that you're doing this with them. And so you do get all of that joy yourself. And I didn't catch that part as I read the paper. So I'm so glad that we're having this conversation. And I think the grandmother that I was talking about and the grandfather is going to be like, Michael, did you rob me of that moment? 

James Hughes Jr. (30:49.934)

Of course. What? Really? Sure. 

Michael Palumbos (30:53.452)

Yeah. 

Michael Palumbos (30:57.718)

When, so one of the things in the paper that you talk about is as you have older children, you talk about an investment or administrative committee for the philanthropy. Can you share, you know, what are your thoughts on that? does, help me to understand what that means. We're talking about if a family has a philanthropy themselves, is that what you, or like in the case of my client, they have a donor advised fund. 

James Hughes Jr. (31:10.552)

Yes. 

James Hughes Jr. (31:25.524)

Right, right, right. The fun of philanthropy in growing social capital in the family. So when we hear the word social capital, we immediately think of philanthropy external. That's much too narrow to understand its benefit. So if there's a philanthropy or donor-advised fund, having everyone in the room 

James Hughes Jr. (31:55.464)

a certain age helping to make decisions about what's going to be done is the building of the internal social capital and joint decision-making system that every family needs. And unlike the normal decisions about the, let's say, financial capital of that family, this is a question of expression externally. 

James Hughes Jr. (32:24.098)

not but, and the internal benefit of participation in the way we're talking about is priceless. You're just building social capital about your own system. 

Michael Palumbos (32:37.55)

So I want to get really specific for the family businesses that are listening to this. By having a, it does not have to be large, but having a small donor advised fund, you now have a family philanthropy. You have a place for that. And so what you're saying is when the kids are over the age of 12, now, 

James Hughes Jr. (32:43.192)

Sure. 

James Hughes Jr. (32:53.902)

Yes. 

Michael Palumbos (33:07.18)

When the grandparents go to meet with their advisor at the Community Foundation where the Children's Advice Fund is, they bring the grandchildren. 

James Hughes Jr. (33:17.494)

Take them along, you bet. Or do Zoom. No, I'm pushing that because I don't want somebody to say, well, it's too far. can't get there. I'm too busy. It isn't true anymore. Now, they may be too busy because they don't want to come. That's a different question, but you can't opt out on distance. 

Michael Palumbos (33:22.273)

or through Zoom. 

Michael Palumbos (33:32.568)

Correct, correct. 

Michael Palumbos (33:41.506)

Got it. And so now the grandparents should be looking for ways where the grandchildren are working together to make decisions about the donor fund or the philanthropy. It's okay to have conversations about investments and 

James Hughes Jr. (34:01.208)

Sure, it's all part of a business. 

Michael Palumbos (34:03.648)

pounding 

Michael Palumbos (34:04.148)

interests. yeah, now, and now again, go back to those leadership skills, those communication skills, the working together teamwork skills, the being able to speak, being able to ask for things, having gratitude for giving. it's just your this is an eye this when I heard this, right? This is what I call it is the sandbox. 

James Hughes Jr. (34:06.114)

Yes. Yeah. 

Michael Palumbos (34:32.797)

for entrepreneurship. 

James Hughes Jr. (34:35.426)

Yeah, it is exactly that. It's exactly that. Now, Michael, I wanted not to throw any cold water on this, but I do want to say one thing to our wonderful audience. Inadvertently, early on when I did this, I was recommending it to a family I cared a lot about, and I thought it was a slam dunk. And a month later, the 

James Hughes Jr. (35:04.492)

the matriarch called me and she was in tears. And she said, Jay, we had this idea. We loved it. My husband and I wanted to gather the grandchildren. And she said, I didn't realize that one of my daughters in law felt that we had not dealt properly with her, not financially, but emotionally. So she said to us, not yet. 

James Hughes Jr. (35:31.244)

So I do want to say to everybody who's listening, this is grounded in an invitation that you know the parents are going to be comfortable accepting. So I've left the parents out. We laughed about the enemies and allies, natural allies. But we must be very conscious that not every family can use this 

James Hughes Jr. (35:58.762)

if its own internal self is not pretty intact, because it sounds pretty easy for the grandparents. But I thought, Michael, before we close, we ought to make sure that we've said, look, just hate as my dad used to say hasten slowly. Yeah. Just just be sure you that you've thought through the parents, not from an exclusion. But how do you include the parents because the parents are 

James Hughes Jr. (36:28.194)

keen that this takes place. Isn't that an interesting way to look at it? 

Michael Palumbos (36:32.226)

Very. And if perchance you think that you're going to get a warm welcome to this and you don't count your blessings because now you know you have an area that is within your family that you have the ability to do something about. If you get that message that it's not welcome, it's a gift. 

James Hughes Jr. (36:59.318)

It is a gift and it is one of the few times you might get essentially that cue. And then you say, wow, I've got some work to do that I didn't know I had to do, or maybe I sensed it. But so I wish I'm just being careful because frankly, I was so surprised. I just thought, this is easy. This is fine. Everybody, you know, will go dancing out into the light. 

James Hughes Jr. (37:29.736)

No, not necessarily. So. 

Michael Palumbos (37:33.882)

I'll share my personal story so that people understand how this works. One of the reasons that I'm so passionate about this work is because of my own family. Having gone through a divorce and my oldest was 16 at the time and she was very upset about the divorce and I totally understand. 

Michael Palumbos (37:59.274)

very unaccepting of her stepmother when we got, when I got remarried and it wasn't a fit and she made it very well known that she didn't really want anything to do with us. And so then she got married and you know, shortly thereafter and I didn't, I was walking on eggshells, my, my, you know, my wife was on eggshells and we did this dance for way too long. 

Michael Palumbos (38:27.266)

So afraid to say this, but I'm going to just be upfront about it. was last summer, we had the conversation. I entered the danger with my daughter and I said, I know we have a relationship that's unhealthy. I'd like to fix that. And the only way that I know to fix that is to listen to you. 

James Hughes Jr. (38:47.842)

Yes. 

Michael Palumbos (38:55.682)

And I need you to know that I'm not gonna judge anything that you say. I need to hear it the way you feel it. And then we'll see where we can go. And we both had a cry. She shared some of the things that were, she was feeling. And it was real simple. At the end of the day, was, know, though she pushed away, she really would have liked it if we pulled her in. 

James Hughes Jr. (39:22.432)

Of course, yes. 

Michael Palumbos (39:23.886)

We 

Michael Palumbos (39:24.146)

missed that. was just that it was so simple. So we've, we've done some meetings with the therapist, one meeting, changed everything. we have committed to the next 17 years being a thousand times better than the last. It works, you know, just, I needed to enter the danger and it was scary to do that, but giving her the space to listen meant a lot. And so go back to, you know, we want, 

James Hughes Jr. (39:48.28)

Yes. 

Michael Palumbos (39:52.778)

more from our grandchildren's conversations than fine, good. 

James Hughes Jr. (39:58.538)

Exactly. Or like, like, like. No, please don't give me any likes. 

Michael Palumbos (40:05.56)

doing this work, you know, and asking those good questions and pulling that together really avoids those things. So you actually building relationships at a level that will be very, very powerful. 

James Hughes Jr. (40:19.402)

I think so. To pick up on that, and then perhaps we've done what we wanted to do today, I would say to our wonderful community, to listening, families die not from heat, from fission, they die from inertia, cold. In this universe, there are three forces. Fission, too much heat, just like Goldilocks and the porridge. Inertia, too much cold, just like Goldilocks. 

James Hughes Jr. (40:48.352)

And fusion, one makes three. That's the mystery of our universe and it's the porridge just right. Fission, I'm saying it a second time on purpose, is not the way most families end. Most families end by inertia. It's just too hard to get together. It's just too hard. It's just too hard. You feel the cold? This way of thinking that you've initiated so beautifully today, Michael, for our audience. 

James Hughes Jr. (41:18.474)

is the antidote to cold. Get some heat in that's controlled heat. And guess what? You get fusion. One plus one makes three. The miracle of our universe. So this is not a panacea. It's not perfect. You do need to look at the system and say, hey, are we okay? Can we do this? But I can assure people, if you've done that work carefully, look at the system and say, okay, yes, I think we can. Parents are in... 

James Hughes Jr. (41:47.95)

say, gee, we'd love to come. No, you're not welcome, but that's okay. We trust you in the right sense. You're going to be bringing the kind of heat that's gentle, that's warm, that's constructive, and you're helping other people. 

Michael Palumbos (42:04.622)

One of the things that I've learned about giving is that when we entertain the act of giving, when we go through that moment and give something away, especially if it was something that we earned ourselves, there might be some form of matching that you might give some of the kids. Maybe we want them to 

James Hughes Jr. (42:22.19)

Yes. Right. 

James Hughes Jr. (42:29.358)

Absolutely. Sure. Why not? Of course. 

Michael Palumbos (42:32.366)

Michael Palumbos (42:32.846)

When we are able to give it away, that allows our brain to think from a wealth perspective, to think from a growth perspective, to know that there's more available because all they have to do is, know, if I can give it away and have gratitude in giving, that makes me wealthy in its mindset. 

James Hughes Jr. (42:55.764)

your heart grows. Yes, I think that's what this is all about. 

Michael Palumbos (43:02.126)

I love it. love it. Jay, thank you so much for your time and sharing the stories and diving into the white paper to give it a little bit more meat on the bone, so to speak. And I cannot wait to share this with every family that I meet. 

James Hughes Jr. (43:25.912)

Well, I think people are gonna have some fun, some good things are gonna happen. And Michael, as always, our partnership is so meaningful to me. You're a wonderful partner and bringing these kinds of ideas forward, it's a blessing for both of us. So thank you very much. And Christina, who helped us, thank you too. Thank you, 

Michael Palumbos (43:47.918)

Exactly. 

Michael Palumbos (43:49.9)

All right, well, thank you everybody for listening. This has been the Family Biz Show. I'm Michael Palumbis with Family Wealth and Legacy in Rochester, New York, and we look forward to having you on the next episode. Take care, everybody.