Transcript

Michael (00:58.394)

Welcome everybody to the Family Biz Show. I'm your host, Michael Palumbos with Family Wealth and Legacy in Rochester, New York. Today we have Matt McCauley from Logo Brands joining us. A multi-generation family owned business that has grown from 

 

Michael (01:14.808)

a small two-car garage to multiple locations and hundreds of employees and team members around the world. So welcome, Matt. 

 

Matt (01:24.792)

Thank you for having me. 

 

Michael (01:26.542)

So we have a tradition and I probably, need to come up with a new tagline to we have a tradition, but we love to hear people's entree into the family business. What did your entree look like? How long, was it right after high school? Did you go to college? Did you do other things? What was your journey into the family business? 

 

Matt (01:50.732)

Yeah, I ironically quit college to start a college business with my dad. So he was a serial entrepreneur. He did a bunch of different things from tune up shops, block walls, build houses. Was always doing something. talked about starting a business together. So I was two and a half years into college and hated every minute of it was not built for it. And so we were brought the idea for the folding bag chair back when Walmart had just came out with a chair that didn't even have arms. 

 

Matt (02:19.694)

So it was new to the market. And so that's, she's like, Hey, you want to pursue this and we'll throw some logos on and see what we can do with it. So his goal was thousand customers doing a thousand dollars a year. He goes, well, you can build a million dollar business. And that was our goal. And so I said, sure. So I quit and day one, we started it from nothing. 

 

Michael (02:41.846)

I love it. love it. you just said something that I want people to hear because it went so quick. It was a thousand customers, a thousand chairs. 

 

Matt (02:53.652)

A thousand customers doing a thousand dollars a year and having really fun. 

 

Michael (02:57.974)

Yeah, and so here's the part that I think people over complicate business. If you just get out your calculator and say, wanna do, here's the number I wanna do, then divide that by the number of units and then the number of customers and units, you've got a business plan and you know what your marching orders are. 

 

Matt (03:18.936)

Yep. Yeah. And it was a realistic number and it was something you could see it was very attainable. And, you know, of course, when we started it, he's like, all right, I guess we'll be logo chair company. And I'm like, well, what if we do something other than chairs? He's like, we won't mess with anything else. You know, and about two, three years later, we had five items that weren't chairs, but that was pretty typical. So. 

 

Michael (03:38.818)

So where were you logo chairs in the beginning? 

 

Matt (03:41.59)

yeah, and actually we were logo chair forever. And then we, we went by logo because we started making other stuff, but it still said logo chairs on all the paperwork. So in the licensing, people would see it. They would think, that's logo chair. And we wouldn't get opportunities from blankets or other things that we could do or we're doing. And so eventually we bought them out and to the end of 2012, and we changed it to logo brands officially. So that would help with, you know, getting more opportunities. 

 

Michael (04:10.11)

Absolutely. And today, when you look at the business, how many different SKUs do you guys have besides chairs today? 

 

Matt (04:19.129)

hundreds. yeah, so lots of different categories, lots of skews and really chairs is kind of you know, smaller lowest margin item we have, you know, so. 

 

Michael (04:30.158)

Because things change. so you have to be looking. My gut says there might be some branded mug that did really well, that was insulated for a while. And even if that's still hot today, that insulated mug that's so fantastic that is around, nobody even knew their name five years ago, and now they're everywhere, there's going to be something new that changes. 

 

Matt (04:59.086)

Always, yeah. And actually we made an acquisition for a drinkware company at the end of 2020. Okay. And it was good for our business. It catapulted us. We've tripled since we made that acquisition. And it was actually one of those where my business partner and the crew that helps me run this thing, they were a little hesitant on the move. I was pretty adamant that it was the right move for us. And we managed to get the deal done. It was kind of a different type of... 

 

Matt (05:27.948)

deal that we structured and acquisition. And so we're able to pull it off and it's been great for our business. But it was one of those where, yeah, chairs and tents were, we're the only player in that market now. We hold the exclusives pretty much throughout, you know, all the different leagues and teams, but it's not a growing market like it used to be. And so we're looking for something else that we could, you know, expand and do more. 

 

Michael (05:52.844)

Got it. So talk about your business is different than the traditional, you know, we have swag, we have stuff to, you know, to take, you know, that you can use in your business. Talk about, you know, the history behind what you've done and, know, how you built the business right from the get go. Just that one, you know, you have the exclusive arrangements with a lot of these teams. Talk, let's talk about that a little bit. 

 

Matt (06:20.91)

Yeah, so getting the licenses is very difficult. And so when we started 20, almost 25 years ago now, it was a little bit easier to get into this business. We started with college and we didn't add the NFL until it was 2014. So we were in business, we were the, you know, bigger college player without having, we had MLB, but we didn't have all the other leagues. Now we have, you know, all of them, all the pro as well as college. 

 

Matt (06:49.462)

And then within the colleges, have 40 of the top universities where we're the exclusive provider for chairs and tents and the tailgate side. But they break it up into apparel and non-apparel in our world. So if you go to get licensed, you're going to get apparel and non-apparel. So we are the largest non-apparel provider. So we don't do any kind of clothing or anything like that. But chairs, tents, coolers, drinkware, blankets, so. 

 

Matt (07:16.226)

Kind of anything that you might use to get as well as in the home or on the go. 

 

Michael (07:20.11)

I love it. I love it. And so you and your dad, you're in the garage when you start this thing. You know what you, what is your marching orders? What are you doing? What's day to day look like for Matt? 

 

Matt (07:33.464)

So we got our first container in, it was November, it came in six months later than it was supposed to, because we didn't know anything about importing product and the factory delays. So the product shows up, not the ideal time to go out and try and sell college merchandise. And so my marching orders were fill up the van and don't come home until it's empty and go get us some accounts. So he didn't even go with me on the first calls. 

 

Matt (08:00.024)

So here I am, know, 21 year old kid. don't know anything. And, so literally loaded up the van and just so happened I was dating a girl up in Fayetteville, Arkansas. We were living in Memphis at the time. So I filled it up with Arkansas chairs and off I went and, I was able to get them all sold and I had a thousand percent success rate on closing because I literally had a few guys look at me they're like, you're not leaving until I buy something. Are you? I'm like, no, I don't get to go home till the van's empty. It's just a matter of how many you're taking. 

 

Matt (08:28.558)

It might be on consignment, but you're taking something, you So, you know, I'd put every dollar I'd ever saved, had a lawn and landscape business with my best friend who's now my 50-50 partner in this in high school and sold it when we went off to college. So I'd taken all the money I'd earned over years and threw it into this business. So I wasn't, you know, gonna take no for an answer. 

 

Michael (08:51.042)

love it. know, Mark Cuban is often coined as saying, you know, if you lost everything tomorrow, what would you do? So I'd start in sales someplace. And so, you know, your story, I just had somebody else on the show, and I don't remember the person's name off, you know, the top of my head, but he threw 

 

Michael (09:12.45)

you know, stuff into a car and he slept in a car for six months going from place to place to place. Might've even been, might've even been two years. I mean, it was, you know, just, you know, they didn't have the money for a hotel. They didn't have the money for things. And so, you know, he would go to truck stops and shower up and get going and have the change of clothes and look good and smell good and, but, and just make it happen. 

 

Matt (09:35.086)

Oh yeah. We put a lot of miles on the van. We were not flying everywhere. It was a lot of driving. 

 

Michael (09:41.058)

Yeah, good for you. I think again, that in this day and age, it's really important for somebody who is starting a business or currently running a business. Sometimes you gotta go back to basics and forget, you know, all of the fancy, hey, this, that, and the other thing. And granted, it is more difficult today to make a cold call than it was 25 years ago. But there's still something about, you know, 

 

Michael (10:10.486)

knocking on somebody's door and showing up and saying, I got something you've got to see and I'm not going away until you at least throw me out of here. 

 

Matt (10:19.342)

So true. 

 

Michael (10:22.143)

Good on you for that. appreciate it. Walk us through a little bit of what's it like working with dad the first three to five years? 

 

Matt (10:34.53)

good and challenging. There was pros and cons. We've kind of always butted heads a little bit. he was interesting in that it was one of those where, for example, he would send me off to Asia after we went over there twice and visited a factory. And then he's like, yeah, you seem to have this down pretty good. And so all the rest of the factories we've ever had in the office we set up over in Asia, I did all that. 

 

Matt (11:01.774)

So I'm 23, 24, and he basically just didn't want to travel to Asia, I think. But to send me over there before iPhones and all the, I'm over there with a flip phone and people didn't speak as much English and all that. But so he would give me a lot of things and trust me with certain stuff. Maybe it's because he just didn't want to do it. But then the other stuff, was, ride me all the time. So typical father son relationship. A lot of it doesn't make sense. And my... 

 

Matt (11:31.48)

My business partner now, my friend, you he's been around since we were 14, 15. So he's, knows, you he's almost like an adopted son. So, you know, he would tell you it wasn't always maybe fair how I was treated, but that's just family, right? 

 

Michael (11:47.15)

Yeah, I'm second generation. A lot of times people don't realize that when they're on the show. And my father and I, I can't tell you the amount of respect that I have for what dad did and how he did it. Here's a guy that came out of the seminary, supposed to be a priest. His mom wanted him to be a priest. She sent all four boys. 

 

Michael (12:15.086)

to become priests and she ended up getting one out of it, good Irish Italian mom. so, he was working for the Diocese of Rochester. He was like made nothing and my mom, my biological father had passed away in a motorcycle accident and my mom went from. 

 

Michael (12:40.588)

you know, this guy, I got to do good for the church and the community and yada, yada, yada to, my gosh, I have a wife and two kids now. I can't make, I can't support a family on this. So, you know, he got into the insurance business well before it was wealth management or mutual funds or anything like that and never sold anything in his whole entire life and supported our family forever. So I have a ton of respect. 

 

Michael (13:10.488)

for how he did and what he did and why he chose the company. We've still been with the same company, even though it's changed names and sold, the core has been the same. And it's always been a serve first philosophy, which is in our industry, just unheard of. so, but to your point, know, dad and I couldn't go on appointments together. 

 

Matt (13:22.734)

I 

 

Michael (13:36.926)

It just never, we were never able to close, you we could close a client and work with them, but then there was like this weird dynamic between the two of us. And we would be just like, what just happened there? Was that my fault? Was that his fault? Cause it definitely wasn't the client's fault. 

 

Matt (13:55.478)

Right. Yeah, we had very different ways of approaching stuff. And as you know, we know in business it's, hey, there's a lot of different ways to get there and doesn't make one way better than the other right or wrong, so to speak. But there's different ways. And, you know, he and I had different ways. He struggled with that, that he was very much a, it's my way, that's the only way and my way works. And he had success in a lot of businesses. So I get that, but it made it hard for him as I kind of. 

 

Matt (14:24.616)

did things a different way. But you know, there were fun times like we go in the warehouse and we have to get a bunch of products stickered for a customer. And so we'd make it fun. We make it a competition. We get a couple lines going and be like, okay, everybody come out, we're going to sticker. We call it sticker parties and like who could do it the fastest, right? So of course he'd be like, all right. 

 

Matt (14:45.774)

Two teams, you take one, I'll take the other. He thinks he's going to beat me. And so my process was different than his. And then I kept beating him. Well, then he wanted to steal all the best people for his team. Like, oh, and then the equipment that he needed and he still couldn't beat me. And so then it was one of the, but he would never admit that my way was better or even change his way to mine. But so it was those kinds of things that early on. I just, I knew what I was getting into in the family business. So I was okay with it as best I could be. 

 

Michael (15:17.262)

Michael (15:17.842)

I would throw, you said something else, you would create competition to do the stickering of products, which is super, super simple. At the same time, we don't do things like that enough nowadays where, let's put two teams against each other in a friendly competition and get the productivity up because nobody wants to be on the losing team. 

 

Matt (15:45.292)

Right. yeah, we were always about it here. Like I, you know, I'm saying like, Hey, there's always a winner and loser. like to win. So these people that are like, Hey, let's just do it for fun. I'm like, well, great. Well, let's go ahead and win. Cause I think winning is fun and then you to have fun too. You know, it's everybody wins. 

 

Michael (15:59.702)

That's great. let's, you the transition, how many years was it before? You said it was like three or four years before you had other products besides the chairs. 

 

Matt (16:10.488)

Yeah, about year three that we introduced a few new items. 

 

Michael (16:14.158)

Okay, as you look at your business and the growth, can you share some of the decisions that you know made a difference if you look back through the history of the business? Share some of the great decisions, but if you don't mind, share some of those decisions where it was like, okay, that one hurt, we ain't doing that one again. 

 

Matt (16:37.262)

Uh, we, we were slow to get over to Asia and really meet with factories and know how that worked. My dad didn't like to travel. Like I said, he relied on some of the email. And so we struggled with getting product consistently with the, the quality that we were wanting. But that said, that leads to one of the stories that I would say was good. So for example, um, we decided to branch out and start making, uh, tents. They first came out. 

 

Matt (17:05.486)

So the tailgate tent like we know it. So we went to a show, we saw a tent, looks great. Let's say that weighed about 50 pounds, this tent, right? So we wait forever, tents finally show up and they weigh maybe 25 pounds because they have skimped on the steel so much and it is not the same product that we ordered. These things were horrible. I mean, they were so bad. We put them up, they're breaking. 

 

Matt (17:29.55)

So we literally called all of our customers who had been waiting all year for this tent and said, hey, we don't want to ship you this tent. It's horrible. It's so bad. And you're not going to be happy with it. And they said, it can't be that bad. Ship it. We'll take whatever. So we said, OK. So we shipped them. And then they got them. And they said, wow, these tents are horrible. And so we said, we'll still replace it. 

 

Matt (17:54.806)

And we'll still give you credit. so we honored a product that we didn't even want to send them on the front end because we thought it was that bad. We built so much credibility during that time because we did it on the front end. And then even once they asked for it, we still honored and took care of them, even though it wasn't our fault that they asked for, you know, so was one of those where that taught me such a good lesson early is like, Hey, if you just are willing to take care of the people and they know you will, they'll be so loyal. then it was then it 

 

Matt (18:23.864)

When we got the right tent, said, Hey, we got a good item there. great. Well, we trust you because you told us when it was bad. Right. And so, and even if it is bad, we know you're going to take care of us. Cause you honored it when you really didn't even have to, because we were the ones asking for it, you know? So, it's stuff like that, that my dad was really good at that taught us those great lessons about, don't worry about maybe the loss today or like, don't be so concerned with that bottom line decision. Just do the right thing. It'll all play out in the end. 

 

Michael (18:53.816)

Yeah. In talking to you and the way that you did business, it reminds me, have you read Phil Knight's book? You dog. I'm like, just listening to you going to Europe and putting these things together. There's some parallels there. So we'll call you chair dog. 

 

Matt (19:03.276)

Yeah, shoot on. 

 

Matt (19:16.254)

Right. 

 

Michael (19:18.818)

But talk about what about the team's growth? What were some of the things that worked? When it's you and dad, it's one thing, but it went to you and dad and five people and you and dad and 15 people to the size of the team that you have today. How did you manage growth? And what were some of the things that worked when it came to you and your dad? Is there any other family members in the business today? 

 

Matt (19:46.19)

Yeah. Well, so it started with my mom and dad and I, and then within a few months, my sister came on board. Um, and then like I said, the, one of the first, uh, hires we made, my dad goes, all right, we needed a salesperson. said, well, I know exactly who we need. that's when Chris, my business partner and best friend from high school, we hired him. Um, and my dad let him buy in at the same rate that he let my sister and I buy in. So the three of us were the young ones were 10 % owners and my parents had 35 % each. 

 

Matt (20:15.946)

Okay. So that was the early family. But we have had Chris's parents both work here. I have like mom doesn't anymore. Actually his dad just came back recently, which we're really excited about his brother works here. His wife worked here for a bit. She actually worked with me in the warehouse for a little bit before she was, you know, inside invoicing my uncle, his son, so my cousin. So we've had, and he's been 

 

Matt (20:45.678)

in and out. So we've had some various things. I've had friends and then one of our good friends that came on early actually ended up marrying my sister. And so my brother-in-law worked here for a bit and then he was a third owner when we bought out my dad with private equity. Unfortunately, that didn't work out. We just, had different, you know, ways of viewing business. And so at the end of the day, didn't work out and ended up having to fire him and part ways and they 

 

Matt (21:14.732)

didn't speak to me for a few years and that was tough. But we're since on good speaking terms and back to normal and not surprising, he's been very successful in what he's done. But it's just kind one of those where I've run the full gamut of having friends not talk to me when I'd fire them and family. And you try and make the right call for the business and put all that aside, but that usually means that you 

 

Matt (21:43.682)

take the brunt of it when it doesn't go well, you know? 

 

Michael (21:46.498)

So you really have been all over the place on those. That's great. 

 

Matt (21:50.168)

yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's the decisions and the way I would have handled it today after all that experience would look way different than the way I handled most of them during it. You know, you, you, you're seeking advice. You're trying to do the right thing. And the probably the worst one was taking some of the advice from people and going against my gut. And those were the ones that probably blew up the most of my face. Cause I, I didn't just do it the way I thought I should have, but I was trying to not, you know, 

 

Matt (22:16.75)

hubris is a tough thing and I didn't want to feel like I was, I knew better. But if there's one thing I look back now is like, I could have, I could have lived with my own mistake, but it was tough taking the advice and then it not going well and having to live with somebody else's, you know. 

 

Michael (22:32.598)

I'm to ask you to do a little editing later. My wife came home and you should have normally come home this early and so the dog was going and she's going to want to. So I'm going to just shut my door so they don't have to bother me. never. Christina, that's the other thing to add to the checklist. We wire our computer. 

 

Michael (23:00.238)

our internet now so we don't have Wi-Fi issues. And I need to remember to put my dog in the crate. So she has the doorbell ring and that never happened. She's a poodle and a King Charles Cavalier. So she is really smart. 

 

Matt (23:17.166)

What kind of dog you have? 

 

Michael (23:29.312)

Like the trainer said to us, this dog's too smart for you too. And she is, but she is the cuddly, most cuddly. She just thinks everybody wants her on her lap, wants her on their lap. She's adorable. She's a good dog. All right, so I'm going to dive back in here and apologize. So Matt, you know... 

 

Matt (23:53.325)

No problem. 

 

Michael (23:58.05)

You've had lots of experience when it comes to having all kinds of family members in the business. When you look at it through the years, what are some of your favorite things about having family members in the business? 

 

Matt (24:14.07)

mean, generally speaking, it's people you can trust that, you know, you like being around them. and it's, it's fun to build something. And so, you know, a lot of times if, if you sit around and you're, you're trying to share with people what's going on and what you're building and they, okay, that, seems nice. But when you're sitting around the table and you're had both been building it, those are fun conversations and fun memories. And yeah. 

 

Matt (24:42.476)

Sometimes it gets tough spending the holidays with them because you've been around them the whole time. But I always thought that the, you know, the pros outweighed the cons in that regard. 

 

Michael (24:54.382)

You said your dad's back in the business now, was out, but did. 

 

Matt (25:01.065)

No, Chris's dad came here for a bit back when my dad was still here. Came for a few years and then his best friend, he had a similar relationship that Chris and I do. They go way back and his best friend called him and was like, I need you back. And so he went, went back with him and they were in the furniture business. So we did that for years. And then here just in this past year, he was kind of looking to 

 

Michael (25:06.99)

Okay. 

 

Matt (25:29.022)

know, swan song semi-retire, we're starting a new little division and we're like, hey, why don't you come back and help us get that off the ground? So it's been fun for both, you know, for all parties, if you will. 

 

Michael (25:40.728)

Good. Talk about if you would transition out for your dad, your parents, you know, what did that look like? What were the conversations? How did you get there? How long ago was that? You know, those kinds of things. 

 

Matt (25:57.902)

Yeah. So let's see, this would have been two. So we started the business and started getting our licenses in 99 and got our first container in 2000. And then in 2011, my dad was not showing up every day, kind of here and there started day trading a little bit. and was, you know, the business has kind of gotten a little bit too big for him to be able to manage all of it, which he's a control freak. So he likes to, you know, be over everything. 

 

Matt (26:27.116)

and had gotten sturdy a little bit too big for him to be able to do that. So when he wasn't here, I was making the decisions and so they had to be made and he wasn't always accessible. So I made them get to the end of the year and we had a great year or banner year. But, you know, he's playing Monday morning quarterback on the decisions, but every time we'd walk through, Hey, here's what I knew at the time. What would you have done differently? There wasn't anything he would do differently. So I said, look, either show up every day. 

 

Matt (26:55.892)

Or be okay with me making the call, but I'm not going to do this, you know, Monday morning quarterback thing for another year. So he said, okay, you're, know, you can do it this year. And, so he did, and we were having a great year. And I think at that point, he's like, all right, I I'm out. so next, you know, he just said, Hey, I think I'm, I'm going to bow out here. You know, it kind of reached a point where he wasn't really ready to have. 

 

Matt (27:25.452)

You know, Chris and Shay and I, was my brother, brother-in-law. The three of us, our voices, we were starting to grow, you know, get a little bit older. you know, we're our early thirties and so we, we had something to contribute and I don't think he was quite ready. He was great with molding 20 year olds and them doing exactly what he said, but he wasn't really ready to have other people in the business challenge him in a good way and to provide other ways of doing it. 

 

Matt (27:53.354)

And so I think that was, he was like, all right, I'm out. And so he just decided to, bow out and you know, I wish he would have kind of just hung around and could have mentored us maybe from a little bit of a distance. could have like bought it from him over time, but I don't think they really even trusted us to run it. I don't think that they believed in us that much. At least that's what my mother told me when, you know, 

 

Matt (28:19.372)

when I brought it up, you why'd you guys go private equity or not? She's well, I don't believe you guys are going to make it, but good luck to you. So that was kind of her parting words were, you know, I don't think you guys will follow the model that we laid out in front of you. And so I think you guys are going to fail, but Hey, have fun doing it your way. So, so they did. And that's, know, Hey, they're prerogative and, so, but we've, we've been fairly successful along the way. So it's all right. 

 

Michael (28:46.702)

Go back to that for just a second, Mark. For you, this was like secondhand, because you were there and you watched the whole thing. But so mom and dad sold their shares of private equity. 

 

Matt (29:02.198)

Yeah, yeah. So like I said, we were, they were 70%. Yeah. 10 % for my sister and Chris and I each. but one of those were some of the things with my brother-in-law, was the family aspect was getting hard and it was really hard for Shay. I mean, you're coming in now you're the new son-in-law and then working for my dad is not. 

 

Matt (29:29.676)

the easiest of tasks, especially as a son. I can only imagine what it was like as a son-in-law. And I think the family dynamic, my dad didn't want the stress of the family dynamic. So he left and then like I said, it was one of those where they were just looking for a clean break. So next year, we had private equity groups coming in. We met with some of those. 

 

Matt (29:54.542)

We had a bunch of groups and we were only 32, 33 at the time, the entire management team. So a fairly young group and the business is doing about 20, 21 million at the time. So a decent size. And we could tell a lot of these private equity group guys were not really, they were wanting to bring in a CEO and you hey, these guys aren't young, you know, they're too young. 

 

Matt (30:19.31)

They don't, they don't know enough, even though we had a lot of collective experience, we had 50 years of experience between the management team, right? Even though we were young. So, you know, admittedly, I tanked a few of those meetings that I could tell were his favorites that maybe we're going to provide the most money is the one thing I thought is my dad was going to give me the opportunity to do it myself. So the guys that I could tell were going to just bring in a new CEO. I. 

 

Matt (30:48.066)

didn't do well in those meetings. We had a few and Chris looked at me and he's like, they asked you all these questions and you said you didn't know. I know you know those answers. And I was like, yeah, well, if they think I'm an idiot, then they're going to bring somebody else and my dad won't, he won't take that offer. And so admittedly I did some of that. And so when, when we found the one guy that was willing to let us run it, you know, the money was expensive, but we went for it. And so we went forward with that. And so 

 

Matt (31:16.77)

They bowed out, took their money and walked away. And we spent the next x number, seven, eight years paying off private equity to get them out. 

 

Michael (31:27.522)

Nice. And you did it. 

 

Matt (31:29.582)

It was interesting. We doubled the business in a couple of years and then really kind of hit what was a no man's land where we should have grown a little bit more, could have been more profitable. We just outgrown our profitability, but didn't know that at the time. So we kind of stopped ourselves. no, we had a bad year. We, we'll clean it up. What we really should have probably done is grown through that stage. But, know, youth and didn't know that. So we kind of stalled ourselves in that manner. 

 

Matt (31:58.126)

Matt (31:58.447)

So it took us a few more years to pay off private equity. We actually had a great year in 2020 and pivoted to medical and actually were able to pay off private equity during that time. So that was nice. 

 

Michael (32:10.478)

That's fabulous. As you're talking about your father and the difference between you and dad, it's really, really evident that for the founder of a company, and again, a lot of it's personality as well, but for many A type founders that it's like my way or the highway. I had somebody else say, Michael, you're asking me to go from benevolent dictator 

 

Michael (32:39.448)

to fully functioning team. This is the hardest work I've ever done. But I think it's fair to talk about there's a transition process that needs to happen to get to where you are. Some of the things that you said in the beginning, we're out of a garage and it's just, I mean, that's founder city. That is we are gonna roll up our sleeves and we're gonna GSD, we're gonna get stuff done. 

 

Michael (33:08.504)

But then there's this, you know, where now you're coaching and he liked the coaching part, coaching these youngsters and helping them because they're nobody's pushing back at this point. It's like, we're just going to listen to the guy who's already successful and just do what he says. But then there's that going from, it might not even be coaching. It might be consulting, do what I say. And you really need to become that coach where the coach lets you go out and fail and make some mistakes. 

 

Michael (33:37.902)

and mentor you. 

 

Matt (33:39.662)

Yeah. Well, it was weird because he would very much let you go fail because he would give you a ton of leeway. But then when it was done in a way that he wouldn't have done it, he really struggled with the different ways of doing things. Um, so it was kind of his model, you know, he was part of the reason we never got the NFL and we didn't grow. So like he was never going to spend a dollar on marketing. He was not going to put his name out there. He was not going to do a lot of things. And we were saying, Hey, 

 

Matt (34:07.726)

A good example would be we wanted to spend like a thousand dollars and go to the national championship game for the NCAA championship game. And there lot of the networking events and various things. And he's like, why would we spend money to go to a game? That's the dumbest thing. Fine. I'll let you guys go this one time. So we go and as we're just at a pre-party event and we're sitting next to this other couple that's just there, we're grabbing some food. 

 

Matt (34:36.727)

So we start talking and I was talking to the wife, come to find out she's a Florida State fan like me. And so we're kind of hitting it off. So Chris starts talking to the husband. We'll come to find out the husband, he was running sports authority at the time, which was an account we couldn't get into. And so he's, what do you guys do? I bet we're buying a bunch of stuff from you. And Chris is like, no, actually we don't sell you guys. He's like, well, why not? He's like, well, I've called on this buyer and he... 

 

Matt (35:03.566)

Debra returns my calls and won't, you know, give us a meeting. And he's like, well, that's going to change. Game is card. Next thing you know, we're selling like, you know, a week later we're selling sports authority. And so we were able to come back and say, Hey, look, these things matter. And so, but it was those types of things where we wanted to do something different. And it was like pulling teeth to get them to do it. And even though we had success in a bunch of the things we tried, the next go around was like pulling teeth sometimes too, you know, it was kind of so, and I get it like. 

 

Matt (35:33.132)

Hey, you've been successful doing it a certain way. You're slow to want to change. So I understand that. 

 

Michael (35:39.682)

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And that's me and my father's, the whole existence. He's like, you want to do what? I got it. Talk about, you the difference of managing, you have 200 team members today. do you, you know, how do you, like you said, you can't have direct responsibility for all of those people any longer. 

 

Michael (36:09.004)

What was the transition for you and how did you go about making that transition? 

 

Matt (36:14.742)

That's been a tough one for me. Actually, I like being in the weeds. like being, you know, getting in there and doing stuff. that's the fact that we tripled in the last couple of years and there's been this rapid growth. It kind of jumped on me that I had to change and I was forced into it. And it was a tough transition because it completely changes how you operate and what you do. And I really felt like in some regards, the outward communication and the 

 

Matt (36:44.95)

the communicating from a distance becomes more important. You know, and I think I got a crash course during COVID for a little bit of time, although we weren't shut down for very long. But I felt like some of my strengths were in the doing and the solving problems being and seeing the weeds and knowing what to fix. And then I was kind of removed from that. So I think it took me a little bit of time to, you know, really 

 

Matt (37:12.888)

trust and pour into my direct reports and some of the next level down and then just spend my time helping and building them up and wherever they needed me and trusting it from there. And much like I had to look back at my dad and go, man, you're having to let people go and fail. And it's tough, but the toughest part was I just like to get in there and do it. I don't have the... 

 

Matt (37:40.81)

not afforded the opportunity and the time to get in there and jump in and unload a container with somebody like I used to. So it is what it is, but yeah, it's good. It's 

 

Matt (37:54.006)

My CEO group, you know, being with Vistage for 10 years helped me to kind of change and mold my mindset and habits and the way I approach stuff. 

 

Michael (38:04.878)

I tell people all the time that, if you're not a member of Vistage or EO or YPO or any of scaling up, I'm a metronomics coach, it's get around other CEOs, get a coach that's working with CEOs because there's just too much to see and to know. if you think that you can do it all, you're just missing something. 

 

Michael (38:34.606)

And so good on you, 10 years of Vistage, congrats. That's big. I can't tell you the amount of CEOs that don't feel that they need to surround themselves with other people like them. And it's being the CEO, as often as you're surrounded by family and friends in your business, it still gets lonely making those decisions. 

 

Matt (38:58.198)

Yep. 

 

Matt (38:58.481)

Michael (39:00.686)

When you look at the next 12 months, 24 months, what would you say your business, you know, your priorities are top two or three priorities for your company going forward? 

 

Matt (39:13.838)

For us, right now we're looking at new facilities. We're in a couple different warehouses. We're trying to combine that operationally with, you our businesses are already fairly complex. And so to simplify it, I'm always talking about let's simplify if we can. So getting us under one roof would really help. And then we're really branching out into some other areas. the division I, you know, talked about that Rick, Chris's dad came in and 

 

Matt (39:42.606)

helping to get started is the special, what we're calling specialty business. So it's all the products we're already doing, but for the things that don't require a license. So, you know, a San Diego zoo or the, you know, the resort, the mountain resort or the beach resort that, you know, is going to buy every year and they're just looking to have their logo thrown on. So we very much have, you know, lived in the world of where it's the contracts and the licenses and the protection. 

 

Matt (40:10.446)

So we've got a good business there, but then why not go get some of these other customers that we can service them just as well. And there's almost no limit to that to a degree. we just kind of, we got a lot of good people down here and so maybe go chase some of that. So that's kind of what we're doing just to branch out a little bit. We think that can be as big as the licensed business. 

 

Michael (40:36.334)

Do you mind if I ask, you you said, you know, back when dad was retiring and whatnot, or, making that transition, you were about $20 million, $21 million. How big is the business today? 

 

Matt (40:49.518)

This year we'll probably do right around 115, 117 range. So we've grown about 30, 35 % over the last year is where it's going to finish. And we're expecting a little bit more growth for next year. 

 

Michael (41:06.042)

And that growth and the ability to continue that growth is only because of one thing. And that's in my opinion, you may disagree, but it's your ability to keep the culture and to keep good people around. It isn't about the product. It isn't about the systems and processes as much. We have to have all of those things. 

 

Matt (41:31.566)

yeah, we have a great culture now. We have the best people. It's a fun place to work. And I'm always telling people when they hire them, it's like, hey, we go through a fairly lengthy process of hiring. cause it's one of those where a lot of these people, I'm going to spend more time with them than I get spending with my family a lot of weeks. So why not have it be people you enjoy being around? And so we really try and make sure that people fit the culture. 

 

Matt (41:58.222)

Our core values we we preach them. They're up everywhere We hire and fire on them. So it's it's one of those where it 

 

Michael (42:07.847)

Can you say that one more time? What do you do with the core values? 

 

Matt (42:11.608)

We hire and fire on them, you know? 

 

Michael (42:14.542)

Why is that important to you guys? 

 

Matt (42:17.038)

Well, it makes it so easy. You know, the other day I had somebody come in and had this guy's not performing. I'm like, okay. And I literally just start going down the core values. I'm like, does he check which, which one is he not checking the box on and come to find out there was a couple. He's not really checking the box. I don't know. Maybe he's not a fit here. And so just makes it real easy to make the decisions and to coach up, see where there's a gap there, but it makes sure that we're all rolling in the same direction. Um, and. 

 

Matt (42:45.88)

So it just keeps it very simple. 

 

Michael (42:47.97)

Yeah. And so you call them core truce of logo brands. I happen to go and check it out. I'm a giant, giant proponent of core values, core purpose, the vision of where we're going and getting everybody moving in the same direction. You do them, yours are perfect. Honorable, improving, team player, competitive, optimistic, nimble, gritty. And then you have a short sentence. 

 

Michael (43:17.688)

that defines that for you guys. And I tell people this all the time, that that little short sentence makes such a big difference so that people can understand exactly what that means. So another one, you don't get to the level of business that you're at without a really great culture. From the garage, from the garage to there, to where you're at today, you don't do that without creating culture. 

 

Matt (43:45.684)

And again, as we get bigger, it's so important to be able to keep that culture consistent over more people, more locations to make sure that that stays consistent across all areas. 

 

Michael (43:58.766)

How do you do that? There's a great question for you. What would you say are the two or three things that are the most important to help you keep the culture that you've already grown? 

 

Matt (44:11.32)

think we just hammer home. We've got the mission board that's got where we're going, who we are, what we're about. All of our team sync meetings, we cover it. I try and put little snippets out. Sometimes the guys say it nauseam. They give me a hard time because I'm always saying it, but at the same time, they'll say, I'm glad you do. yeah, that was probably the hardest part about learning this. 

 

Matt (44:39.742)

new role, if you will, for me is this the repetitive, constant repeating of the same few things. I must say it once and move on. you know, twice seems repetitive for me. So why bother? So that was probably the biggest thing is just hammered it and making sure it's always right. And, you know, the people that are going to be leading the charge, making sure that they're always 100 % knowing which way we want to go and how we want to do it. 

 

Michael (45:09.87)

It's parenting. If you have too many rules with kids, they don't have any rules. And it's the same with work. It's not so much kids, it's just human beings. We can only handle so much, you know? So keep it simple. Seven is the max I tell people. That's the max you can have. 

 

Matt (45:15.245)

right? 

 

Matt (45:32.428)

Yeah, we simplified it down to one word. So they used to be almost like small phrases and we changed it just this past year to one word. I kept trying to simplify, simplify. so one of those were the reason why it was so hard is because our first one was pleasing to God for so many years. And I really hated the, you know, to just take it to one word and say God and then people would know. so 

 

Matt (45:59.438)

But we landed on honorable and we still have it in the description of, know, pleasing to God and just doing the right thing. And I always tell people, I'm like, look, while myself and the rest of my direct reports and, know, they're all professing believers. You don't have to believe what I believe, but it's important that you understand what I believe. So, you know, how I'm to make decisions and what we're going to do. And if you read scripture and you know it, then you'll never be surprised by anything I do down here. And if I'm in your shoes, I'd... 

 

Matt (46:27.522)

don't want to be surprised. So you at least have that opportunity. Now I'm also an HR person's worst nightmare because I don't really care about all the other stuff. And I just feel like I'm supposed to do what the Lord's telling me to do. And I let the rest play out. So there's that, but you know, it's, it's worked well for us so far. 

 

Michael (46:45.582)

That's fabulous actually. It keeps, like you said, it lets everybody know where they're at and use the core values, use for you, if it's not God's path, then higher in fire based on those kinds of that thinking makes it simple. 

 

Matt (47:06.702)

Yeah, 

 

Matt (47:07.122)

we didn't let anybody in 2020. We didn't let anybody go. didn't, you know, we paid everybody. We just kind of all side around and said, Hey, we think the Lord is going to get us through this. And we all felt convicted that we didn't want to lay a bunch of people off. And so we just stuck with it and figured it out. And the Lord ended up bringing us through and, pretty well through. So it was one of those where sometimes you just be obedient and you get more than what you deserve. And other times you get less than what you think you had coming, but it's all good. 

 

Michael (47:36.142)

Yeah, I have my Vistage Chair said, Michael, you're trying to control way too much. And so I have a reminder that comes on my phone every day at 4 p.m. You are where you're supposed to be right now. And for me, you know, that's my reminder to say, I am not in control. I need to allow, you know, my path to be. 

 

Michael (48:03.27)

laid out the way that it was supposed to by somebody greater than me. 

 

Matt (48:08.142)

I tell people all the time, you know, I think that what happens is, especially if you start a business, it's so easy to have a tight grip on it. And I always tell people I have a loose grip because it's not mine. It's the Lord's and I'm just, you know, a steward of it. And for a period of time and how long that is, I don't know. And he may call me to go do something else one day, or I may be in this until I retire and that's fine. But, you know, by keeping a looser grip on it, it makes the decisions a little easier and 

 

Matt (48:37.772)

you know, it's a little less stress that way. 

 

Michael (48:41.198)

Speaking of stress, what are your stress points right now? So we know your priority and what you've been doing. What are some of the things that frustrate you right now or cause you stress? 

 

Matt (48:54.668)

our biggest one has been cash, you know, with growth, know, tripling and it just eats up cash. And so it's one of those where we, it's fun to grow. It's been great. It's been good growth. But you know, when you're having to put every dollar you make back in the business, kind of like, man, I'd like to take some of it home one day, you know, I don't know what day that'll be, but you know, and then we finally got a. 

 

Matt (49:20.554)

a new bank in and they doubled our line of credit and that's helped a lot. But just kind of always that strain of just lot of great opportunities in front of us. And I hate having to turn down, you know, anything that I would love to go chase. And there's been, it's good because it forces us to be very picky, get some good opportunities. But one of those where, you know, be nice to have a big stockpile and just go after whatever you want, right? 

 

Matt (49:49.016)

So for us, it's just been the last few years just making sure we've got the cash to grow. And we're in a much better spot now than we were a years ago, but it's never fun when you're just always trying to. 

 

Michael (50:00.046)

So how long ago as the CEO did you, and you may not know it as this term, I'll use it, but as a coach, it's the cash conversion cycle. I have to go out and sell something and then we have to make it, then we have to distribute it, and then we have to collect the cash, right? There's the cycle, it's real simple. But how long were you in the business before you started to realize, my goodness, 

 

Michael (50:26.646)

growth sucks cash and I got to shorten that cycle as best I can. 

 

Matt (50:32.462)

I think it was pretty early on, because my dad was always about cash and about no debt and pay for stuff. And so we were doubling almost every year. And granted, it was a much smaller number. we were doubling. So we were always having those conversations. A part of why he didn't chase certain things. He went out chase. You can grow yourself out of business. We almost have a few times. And so I think it's always been there. And then I learned a lot through private equity. 

 

Matt (51:01.25)

you know, sitting around those early meetings and they're saying stuff and running and sitting and you're like, wow, I need a better education here, right? You you leave every meeting, you go back and Google half the acronyms that they threw out and, you know, diving into the numbers. And so learned a lot through all of that, just forced to learn all the things that maybe you didn't know you didn't know. And so, but early on my dad, so when I was, 

 

Matt (51:31.805)

He put me on the envelope system, gave me a monthly allowance. had to buy my own clothes. You know, like if I want to go do something outside of it, I had to pay for it, save, you know, X percent, give X percent. so like, so I, you know, from a very early age, I was managing my own money. And so he gave me a, a really good foundation from that regard. My parents were always good about that. 

 

Matt (51:59.566)

It wasn't always fun as a 10, 11, 12 year old. You want all your friends to get new shoes and I'm not. And I didn't know how to manage my money as well. And they kind of just let me go and do it on my own. And so I didn't get a ton of maybe coaching along the way. Although my personality, probably needed to fail on my own. But so I feel like I got a pretty good idea of what it was like pretty early. 

 

Michael (52:27.936)

Nice. Do you have kids yourself? 

 

Matt (52:31.084)

I do. got 11 and 13 year old boys. And they play all the sports and they're they're generally very, very good kids. Although you know. They're kids. They're they're soon to be teenagers. No, but they're they're they're good and they're they're a lot of fun and I very much enjoy my time with. 

 

Michael (52:46.584)

Perfect. 

 

Michael (52:52.642)

Yeah. Do they do any summer work or whatnot in the business? 

 

Matt (52:58.294)

Yeah, we've gotten them in the warehouse and, you know, helping and doing different things, you know, since they started playing travel ball and that eats up a lot more time that it's kind of made it hard. But my thing is, Hey, if you work hard and put in the work on that, then I'm willing to, you know, help you in the other areas, but you're going to work one way or the other. So it's just a matter of what you, you know, but my 11 year old just last week was like, Hey dad, can you set up a trading account for me? I really want to learn to trade stocks. And so. 

 

Matt (53:27.458)

Got him a dummy account and he's playing around with it and he's that kid. 

 

Michael (53:33.774)

That's fun. right, a couple of curve balls and they're not big ones. Just off topic, favorite family tradition for your family. 

 

Matt (53:50.882)

Good one. 

 

Matt (53:54.754)

I don't know that we have a lot with my family. I feel like ours has been a lot of the stuff really that we've done around sports. We've started, so I do a Bible study. so a lot of times I'll take that and we'll make that our church when we have baseball games on Sunday. And the boys have really, really enjoyed that. And that's kind of been. 

 

Matt (54:22.358)

a new one that we started this past year, because we just hated that we're always missing. But that doesn't mean you can't stay in the word. And so that's become kind of like the new one that's been really good. And we enjoyed it. 

 

Michael (54:36.526)

I love that. And not, you know, it's doesn't matter where you are as long as you, as long as you're talking to me. Right. And doing and sharing with others. Good for you. I love that. Favorite books as you're as, know, I know you can't be a leader without learning new things, but going through, you know, the last 25 years or so, you know, what were some of the books that today you're like, they still stand the test of time and everything I've done. 

 

Matt (55:06.606)

Yeah, it's funny. I actually created a list for, cause I got asked so many times about different books. know, anything by Patrick Lincione is really good. And then the Rockefeller habits, which is the scaling up, right? You know, the, the first one I found back when we first started the business, like the book had just come out in early 2000s and that was critical for our business. You know, I bought that and brought it to my dad and like, Hey, we need this. 

 

Matt (55:33.294)

Then obviously traction came out and so in scaling up as I've all of those I've kind of taken a mixture of those three books for our mission boards. And they've been a great foundation. You know, good to great, built to last all those like just, you know, lot of the different execution, some, some books that just kind of really help you as on, as I sort of look at getting bigger and who failed and why and. 

 

Matt (56:02.04)

trying to make sure we don't repeat any of those mistakes. 

 

Michael (56:05.038)

Awesome. I'm a metronomics coach. Shannon was one of Vern's first coaches years ago. And matter of fact, like the book I wrote, Vern put a little note on the book for me. And I just was having a conversation with him on LinkedIn, thanking him for all the stuff that he's done through the years. Cause I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for the work that he did to lay the groundwork with birthing of the giants and 

 

Matt (56:12.108)

Okay. 

 

Michael (56:34.69)

and scaling up and mastering the Rockefeller habit, just awesome stuff. I throw to you as you're going through and growing and doing the things that you're looking at, take a peek at Shannon's book, Three Hag Way. I you get a lot out of that. She does some great strategy work and take a peek at that. And if you like that whatsoever, you know. 

 

Michael (57:02.798)

there's seminars on just learning that piece that we do. And this is not what this was about, but. Rehag Way, it's her second book. So it's not even the first or the latest. She wrote the book Metronomics, but when you look at Metronomics, it's really designed for coaches to have that prescription to say, how do I work with my CEOs? What should I be expecting? 

 

Matt (57:10.602)

Three half way you said. 

 

Michael (57:30.206)

the other one that she's got out there is the game and that's her latest book. And that's just a real simple, you know, let me explain, let me take, scaling up and EOS and all those things. And let me just give it, you know, that's the starter book that you're handing your leaders to say, I'm just going to give you an understanding of why we're doing these things. And that's games and great book, but three head way, I think you'll get a lot out of, and I don't talk about it enough. always forget. 

 

Michael (57:59.086)

How that's like of all of her books, it's my favorite cause I love digging into strategy and where they'll like EOS and traction give you all of those groundwork things to get everything done. But sometimes, you know, it's like, need that strategy component. And that's where metronomics and three hag way will come in to really take that strategy to a different level. Yeah. 

 

Matt (58:23.073)

That's great. I'll check those out. Yeah. 

 

Michael (58:29.294)

Here's my last question. You're sitting in front of an audience of family businesses, all multi-generational. They've worked with all of their different family members and they're sitting there wondering, Matt, what would you tell me to do about all my family members in here? What's the advice you're giving to a group of family businesses? 

 

Matt (58:53.742)

have all the tough conversations as early as you can. All the stuff that you think could be an issue or you think they might find as an issue and get it out on the table and decide what are we going to do about this? And there were the things you think might come up and go, if this happens, how do we want to handle it? You know, I think about like Chris and I were 50 50 partners in some regards that can be difficult for people like, but 

 

Matt (59:22.19)

our dynamic and our friendships kind of one in a million unique type of, you know, friendship. And so he's like, look, if you need to be 51 and I need to be 49, that's fine. He goes, you're going to make the final call anyway. And he knows I've always got his best interests at heart and vice versa. And so it doesn't matter that we're 50 50. Um, but I feel like we've had all those tough calls and we know what we're going to do in each scenario. Um, and I'd say that's the one thing when I look at people that 

 

Matt (59:52.034)

when they're struggling, my dad didn't want to talk about a lot of stuff. He didn't want to, you know, okay, that's a difficult topic. Let's just, you know, maybe that won't come up and we'll put it off to the side. And I feel like that's really where a lot of the issues that we ended up having were related to that. So have them all, you know, get it out there and don't let it be emotional. Just find a common ground and what are you going to decide to do? 

 

Michael (01:00:19.978)

You just made me think of two books. know, one I've talked about before, it's called Every Family's Business. And it's like the six or 12 questions that every family should be having around the business every single year so that you're getting those tough conversations on the table. And then the other one is just a book called Critical Conversations. It's somebody that it's hard to have these conversations. So I need a platform. need some coaching to get me through having these conversations. 

 

Matt (01:00:39.616)

yeah. 

 

Michael (01:00:50.27)

Awesome, awesome advice, really appreciate it. Matt McCauley from Logo Brands, really appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing your experience through your family business and your time with your dad and all the family members and the growth. Just sharing that piece alone, there's been so many nuggets inside here. Some of them are the same as, you can distill a lot of the shows that we do down. 

 

Michael (01:01:19.042)

and you'll hear the culture, culture, culture piece coming through and the growth of the CEO that you had to do. Those are a lot the same, but there's some really great nuggets that you shared with us that are totally different. I just wanna say thank you and we appreciate it. 

 

Matt (01:01:33.166)

Well, Michael, thank you for having me on. Really enjoyed it. 

 

Michael (01:01:35.906)

Thank you everybody for listening to another episode of the Family Biz Show. I am Michael Palumbos from Family Wealth and Legacy in Rochester, New York. We look forward to sharing more with you on the next episode. Have a great day, everybody. Thank