Transcript

Michael Palumbos (00:37.638)

Welcome everybody to the Family Biz Show. I am your host Michael Palumbos with Family Wealth and Legacy in Rochester, New York. We've got a great show for you today. We have three generations of the Firkins family and tile wholesalers here today with us. So welcome everybody to the Family Biz Show.

 

Thank you for having us.

 

Michael Palumbos

So typically, you know, we talk about people's transition into working in the family business. I think I'm going to skip that today. What I really want to do is talk to ALE a little bit and just have, why don't we just have each of you introduce yourselves, what generation you are, and then we'll talk, we'll come back to ALE and talk about the history of the business and how we got started.

 

Al Firkins

Okay, my name is Al Firkins I'm the first generation of this business.

 

Michael Palumbos

Thank you,

 

Dave Firkins (01:33.23)

My name is Dave Firkins, second generation and the current president of tile wholesalers.

 

Kathryn Firkins

I'm Kathryn Firkins, second generation. married in and I am currently the vice president of the company.

Conor Firkins

And I am Conor Firkins. I'm the third generation in charge of regional sales for tile hull sailors.

 

Michael Palumbos

Awesome. Thank you all and welcome. Al, talk to us a little bit if you wouldn't mind about, you know, how you got started at Tile Wholesalers, how the business came to be in the first place. What year was that to give us some context?

 

Al Firkins

Well, actually, I started in the business working after high school at 16 years of age. I worked for another tile distributor in Buffalo, worked there for several years, went into service and he says, I'll open a branch in Rochester. Would you mind going down there and being the manager? So I moved to Rochester and I believe it was 19.

 

Kathryn Firkins (02:35.694)

72.

 

Al Firkins

I and how I got started with tile wholesalers, I always made friends with our competitors and different manufacturers, reps. One day one of them came to me and says, why don't you go into business for yourself? And I was scared to death, but he says, look, we'll finance you. You come down and tell us what you need and away you go. So that's how I got started.

 

Michael Palumbos

That's awesome. I love that Talk about when Dave came into the business a little bit, you know, what was that like for you?

 

Al Firkins

Well, actually he was probably eight or nine years old and he'd come to work with me whenever he was in school or in the summer. back then I had a handcrafted or handcrafted, hang, boy, hand cracked, boy, I can't get that out. Handcrafted anemachine. And so I said, look, this is something that we wholesale for a dollar.

 

Hank Crank.

 

Al Firkins (03:42.988)

And it cost your dad 50 cents. How much did we make? And he'd come back, you made 50 cents, dad. And I said, no. I says, you know, we have to pay the rent. We've got to pay the utilities. We've got to pay the help. And whatever's left over, that's our profit as a business. And that's how we get started. And he was very interested in that. And he continued working off and on through high school and when he went to college, when he got home.

 

for vacation break or whatever it was, he always come back and worked in the business.

 

Michael Palumbos

love it. David, talk about your, you know, when you when you would your official entry into the business where it was, you know, your full time position, talk about, you know, what happened leading up to that for you.

 

Dave Firkins

Well, that was 1965. I was born into it. I don't think there's another way to describe it. when my dad talked about when I was eight years old, I may be one of the very lucky few that knew very early on what I wanted to do. I enjoyed going with my dad. I loved the camaraderie of

 

Is there a...

 

Dave Firkins (04:52.974)

different contractors and I just love the atmosphere so I don't think there was ever a point in time where you could actually definitively say this is what it was but I do remember those eight, nine, ten year old times getting up, going to work, just learning everything from my father, watching what he did and you know as you fast forward all those years it became when I got out of college in 87 that I was ready to hit the ground running. I had a good educational background behind me, I had a good

 

work knowledge behind me and i was i was ready to go

 

Michael Palumbos (05:29.503)

And Kathryn, so now you married into the business. Talk about what was that like for you?

 

Kathryn Firkins

Well, Dave and I met at Geneseo and right from the get-go, he just always talked about his family business and how much he was looking forward to applying what he was learning for his accounting degree to the future of the business. so I would often, when his parents would go away, we'd come home on weekends because he needed to supplement and work for his dad.

 

and I could just tell very early on in our relationship that I was going to need to move to Rochester and I had no choice in that matter because this was his passion and this was what he wanted his life's work to be. we graduated in 87, I stayed in Buffalo a few months working and then made the move to Rochester myself and

 

Actually, that was my first foray into working for the company as well because I was an extra set of hands in the showroom for a number of years while I had a separate career. that was my first start in the business and I worked actually for my father-in-law at the time and with Dave and it was really, it was a great experience to be able to watch the two of them working.

 

together day in and day out. that was really great for me. So, yep, I married in and this is where I am, know, 37 years later.

 

Michael Palumbos (07:13.684)

it. You know what, you have a unique perspective that we don't always get to hear about, but talk about the dynamics between Dave and Al a little bit if you wouldn't mind. You what was that like watching that, watching the two of them? What was it like for you?

 

Kathryn Firkins

Well, I think one of the things that stood out to me is the trust that my father-in-law had in his eldest son. They would banter about about different things and different directions that things were going to head. But my father-in-law Al really had a confidence in

 

not only what Dave was doing on a day-to-day basis, but a trust level that because Dave was so passionate about where the company was going to head, he allowed Dave to pursue a lot of different avenues. I can pinpoint one particular example would be computerization of the entire operation.

 

when even when i was working for the company i was helping early on with the book work and things and it was all done on paper was all manual and one of the things they wanted to do right away was to computerize everything went to his dad said you know this is what i think we need to do his father trusted that hate this is the way to go go ahead and do it hit the ground running with that so dave did that i had another example would be that

 

Dave's father specifically brought in some commercial product. were typically a residential company to begin with. And his dad brought in some commercial product, said to Dave, OK, I brought in this product. We're going to start calling on architects and designers, and we need to sell this commercial product. And his father had that trust and that confidence in him that they would be able to achieve that together.

 

Kathryn Firkins (09:20.342)

I mean, I wasn't there all the time. I'm sure that there were times when my father-in-law was like, my gosh, what is he thinking? What is he doing? But they really, really worked well together. you know, that in and of itself is crucial when it comes to the success of any family business. My father-in-law, and I'll speak for Al on this, always had the relationship with Dave that

 

They could talk about things if they needed to. They could hash things out if they needed to. It was still family first for the two of them. And it was just really great to see that that was the emphasis with them.

 

Michael Palumbos

I love it. When we're coaching family businesses, we always bring up Patrick Lencioni's work in the five dysfunctions of a team and that foundation of every team comes back to trust. So that's one of the nice parts about a lot of family businesses is that trust is inherently there. And I'm glad to see that that was something within the Firkins family. Love it.

 

Okay. Conor, why don't we let's talk about, you know, your foray into the family business. What was that like for you?

 

Conor Firkins

Yes, I mean, I'm very similar to my father. you know, when I was a kid, I would beg to go to work with him when I had off of school or, you know, during the summer when I was growing up, I would always, you know, work in the warehouse and work in the showroom and try to learn the ropes a little bit. I went to school at Bowling Green State in Ohio. And, you know, after I graduated, I wanted to get a little bit of real world experience. So I lived in Cleveland for a little bit. lived in Boston for a couple of years. And then, I don't know, five years ago now, four years ago now, I

 

Conor Firkins (11:05.132)

We were sitting down after Christmas one day and I said, dad, what do you think about coke?

 

COVID hit and it was a difficult time for a lot of people, including yourself being stuck in an apartment and.

 

And I said, what do you think about me coming back and joining the family business? And it just so happened to be the right time for some of the things that were going on for us. And it's been a very fast but enjoyable four years. It's been a lot of fun.

 

Nice. Al, I want to come back to you for a second and talk about, know, Kathryn mentioned that the beginning of the business was very focused on residential. Talk about two things for me. One, where did that trust in your son come from for you? And I know, you know, he started at a very young age coming in, but

 

Not everybody has that and I think it's important to talk about, you know, how you develop that level of trust and where that came from. And two, I want to hear about what was the business? How did you make money in the beginning? What did it look like? And when did you start to transition to other areas and whatnot?

 

Al Firkins (12:12.32)

Well, I think trust comes from the way he was raised. And if he was raised correctly, there was no reason not to trust the way he handles himself. It's very simple.

 

I think for a lot of people though, it's your baby and it's your business that you started and so bringing in change isn't always easy. I think I want to get, I guess that's the point I'm trying to make and give you some credit for the fact that you were open to change and new ideas as you were going through. That's not easy for everybody. What are some of the things that made that easier for you?

 

Well I think I let him run a little bit by himself. You can't stay in a stable position the rest of your life. You've got to look forward to what's going on in the future. So you've got to give him a little bit of rope and let him go out and do what he wants to do. And if he hangs himself, he hangs himself. We'll worry about that later. fortunately everything worked fine.

 

Was through the many years that you guys worked together, was there a time where an idea didn't work out?

 

don't believe so.

 

Michael Palumbos (13:30.542)

Nice. That's, I kind of love it when that happens. But the fact that it remains that even if there was a mistake or it just didn't work out the way that you thought, you know that you would have kept moving forward with the next, you know, the next idea or the next iteration of the business as Dave saw it to give him some of the confidence that he needed to do the same things.

 

Everybody's going to make mistakes, so you just live with it and move on. Great.

 

So talk about, you know, when you started in the business, it sounds like you were mostly residential. You know, what was the team like when you started? How many people did you have in the organization through the years in the 70s into the 80s? And when did you start making some of the changes into, you know, adding the commercial lines into the business?

 

Al Firkins

Well, when I first started, it was a one-man operation. I used to work from 7.30 till 5, go home, shower up, put a suit on, and I'd go out and call on clients until sometimes 11 o'clock at night. And eventually, I hired another former employee of my former boss. So was a two-man operation. And then we gradually added another one and another one. And I think we probably had a total of four or five

 

in the next 10 or 12 years.

 

Michael Palumbos (14:58.04)

Great. And Dave, talk about, why don't you jump in and talk about the addition of, you know, what the business looks like today, adding the commercial lines to your business. What does that look like today? How many employees are there today?

 

Well, it's an interesting story because back in the late 80s when we started to make a move to, in addition to the residential that we were doing, to make a stronger push to commercial, there were no representatives from a local independent distributor that were calling on architects or designers. At that time, most of the reps that were on the calling on those firms were national people. So when we started in 86, 87, making a stronger push,

 

It was a time for me to just explore what was totally new. And that was making those calls to architects and designers and starting to develop relationships with those people that were making the decisions with respect to airports or office complexes or malls at the time. It was a real, real interesting, fast-paced environment that we had moved into.

 

and it was all left to me. My father was big on saying, you just sell it, you just go out and make it happen. There's nothing wrong with baptismal by fire. think that was one of the things that allowed me was just to be able to do it on my own without anybody knowing whether there's a right or wrong answer. It's just you've got to make it work for yourself. And darn, we made it work. It was very interesting time. And so as we started doing that,

 

We gradually grew that business and the one manufacturer that put us on the radar back in late 80s, 86, 87 time period, we're still with today and they continue to be a strong partner for us and they've allowed us some growth that we have moved into the central New York region. We go as far as Utica and then down south as far as Binghamton. So we've got a pretty good cross-section of western New York and central New York and that's not an area that my father...

 

Dave Firkins (17:05.772)

really did business with when he opened in the early seventies. So we're a much bigger footprint, we do an equal amount of residential and commercial work that just was not there in the early seventies.

 

Got it. How many employees today?

 

12.

 

12 employees total.

 

Yes. Conor, I want to jump over to you for a moment and talk about the family dynamics. Talk about, you know, what does it look like, you know, decision making within the family and what does it look like in terms of, you know, is there an on or an off button in terms of, you know, holidays and family gatherings or is it always, we're always talking the business?

 

Conor Firkins (17:50.862)

Yeah, that's it.

 

You're with mom and dad every day of the week or six or seven days of the week.

 

Yeah, and that's kind of the cool part to me is, you know, I do get to work with my parents, you know, every single day of the week, know, Saturdays, Sundays, whatever it is. When you're running a business like this, there isn't necessarily an off button, but that doesn't mean that we can't, you know, converse about other things or enjoy other things, you know, together as a family. But, you know, when it's something that the three, the four of us are so passionate about.

 

you know it it just kinda naturally comes up in conversation ideas come up or even small disagreements that are never really you know major disagreements it's just you know something that we talk through as as a family and then we figure out the best way forward so you the family dynamic is is really tile and then kind of outside of that you know we get to enjoy ourselves too

 

and he still gets it from his grandfather because his grandfather will say how's business going or what's new

 

Conor Firkins (18:42.744)

Yeah, and we still got, you know, there's a couple older guys that, you my grandfather did business with that are still hanging around and still popping every once in a while. And, you know, it's good to have that, that long lasting, you know, three generations of connections with, some of these guys. You know, really don't see that, you know, very often in any type of industry. And it's just, it's something that's really unique to our specific business, I think.

 

I love it. When you talk about, you know, the decision making process or the talking through things where you may not naturally agree, what does that look like for your family? And let me explain why I'm asking because I think it's different in every family. And I think it sounds like you guys have a really good model of healthy communication. I just want to, from your perspective,

 

How does that flow for you guys?

 

You know, I guess I'll kind of pick out something major that we did recently. We recently underwent a massive reconstruction of our showroom on Easterridge Road. with that reconstruction comes a lot of decisions about what to put where, how to design this, how to do X, Y, or Z. And three of us having three different opinions, obviously a disagreement is going to come up. But when we all kind of sit down together at the end of the day, when everybody's gone home and we can just have some time to ourselves, we can talk through those

 

disagreements and figure out where each person's point of view is and it makes everything a lot easier. No disagreement necessarily leads to a massive blowout argument. It's just we all kind of get over our points of view and then figure out the best way for the business to move forward because that's always at the forefront of our minds is what decision is going to move the business forward and that's the most important thing.

 

Michael Palumbos (20:29.734)

So I want to make this note that you guys are classic when it comes to I mentioned it earlier But the five dysfunctions of a team, you know It's we have trust in one another and that allows us to have conflict, right? and that conflict is healthy conflict. It's Disagreements it's what's you know, what's what do we need to do to make the business better? It's always focused on the business not any one of you, you know getting their way or moving

 

the ball forward in from your perspective and then the three of you are able to commit to an action move that forward and it's not a I have to believe that when it doesn't always work out exactly the way that it was supposed to but it's not a see I told you so it's more of a okay let's make the adjustment and move forward.

 

Yeah, think when even just small decisions where I might have an opinion that I get sort of not necessarily but overruled on and when you see that overruling kind of work out and you say, right, yeah, you were right, we move on. It's not anybody gloating. just saying, OK, yeah, you made the right decision. I'm glad I was overruled there. There's no sort of tense feeling in the room when you walk in after being overruled on a small decision like that. Yeah.

 

there's always something where you gotta look back and say what would and i still find myself all these years later i'd say you know what would my dad do and and i i hope that that Conor carries through apart of you know not only what would my dad do but with my grandfather do and i think some of those legacy issues are still present today and they help guide what we're because they're just strong value type marks

 

Yeah, I think it's interesting to mention that, you know, as a spouse coming from a separate career and moving into the company and I've been now with the with the company 11 years is people said to me, Are you sure that you want to work with your husband every day and then you have to go home and you're with your husband and I mean, it

 

Kathryn Firkins (22:39.53)

It sometimes is an interesting dynamic because you are together, you know, all day and you don't have anyone to vent to when you get home because you've already been with that person all day long. So I think it takes a certain amount or a certain type of temperament and fortunately Dave and I both have that. know, Conor, when he says, you know, working with your parents every day,

 

It's not always easy, but what you mention about trust and communication is that even on our worst day, we're still communicating because we need to advance the business. And that in and of itself, I think, shows the strength of the relationship. And moving forward, both Dave and I, as we enter our later years,

 

We, much like my father-in-law, know that the future of the business is in very good hands. So that's a really nice thing too. And I do hope that Conor will say, what would mom do?

 

I get the best of both worlds.

 

That's right. Let's talk about the transition and I'm just making that assumption that there was a transition from Al to Dave. How did that play out? When did that happen and what was the process for going through that for you guys?

 

Al Firkins (24:19.884)

Well, I think 1977 is when we went from the old school to the new school.

 

87. Yeah, well, 87 Dave joined full time and then in 97 then you were gonna gonna head out and retire to fun in the sun.

 

and they think you know what the transition didn't kind of look like it was exactly black and white on paper i had been there for so long my father had gotten used to taking time or vacations or traveling certain places and he just knew that i was going to be there if i was in college i'd come back and work you know as much as i could i'm not sure that it actually looked exactly like that black and white transition but i think when he finally left in

 

90

 

97. We were well on our way. He was a come in late, leave early. I think I did that in the earlier days. He was big on saying he'd have to make up the difference somehow. by the time he left, you know, I was very comfortable being on my own. I was comfortable with the schedule that I was setting. It might have been a bit more challenging for Kathryn trying to help raise the two kids that we have.

 

Al Firkins (25:37.978)

But I think everybody goes through that and, you know, Kathryn would be big on saying she knew this is what I wanted to do, so she was extremely supportive in allowing me to continue that dream and continue the drive that my father started. think that, you know, when I left, I said to Dave, you know, if you ever have a problem or you have to have a question answered, give me a call and we'll have an answer for you.

 

Sure.

 

Al Firkins (26:07.36)

He never did, which is really a vote of confidence in what I did to transform from myself to my son to run the business. Well, there were no cell phones, there were no pagers, there were no... There was a very difficult place to get a hold of my father if he was traveling, even if I wanted to ask that question.

 

So you had to ask yourself, would dad do?

 

It's a little easier now, right? And I would say to Conor, you know, if your mother and I are out, you know, it could be a text message, it could be FaceTime, it could be, you know, a phone call. Now with technology, it's not that hard to be able to get a hold of somebody. It was a bit more challenging knowing that I wanted to do it on my own, but knowing that I just couldn't pick up the phone and say, Dad, what would you do? Because he would want me to figure it out. And like I said earlier, baptismal by fire was not a bad way to kind of keep going.

 

as we entered new markets and new areas and new ways to do business.

 

Yeah, and that's kind of how, when I came back to the business, I kind of got thrown into this new market that we were taking over. it was, you I think you went with me on the very first sales call that we did, and then that was it. I kind of had to figure this new area out on my own. And it's really only way to do it. You just kind of get thrown in and you either sink or you swim. And, you know, when you go back to the office and you say, would you have done this differently? Would you have done that differently? It's, you know, it all goes back to that trust and that support system that we all have here.

 

Michael Palumbos (27:33.908)

Love it. Dave, do you mind if I ask about the technical aspects of the transition? Without getting into details, you know, was this a gift? Did you gift the business? Did Al gift the business? Was it a purchase? Got it. Okay. Love that. What kind of stress was that for you to, you to know that you were buying out dad?

 

Now it's a purchase.

 

Conor Firkins (28:00.928)

back then.

 

You know, I never lack confidence and I think that's one of the things you have to have as a business owner is you've got to have supreme confidence in not only yourself but where you want to take things. I don't think I had any stress whatsoever. I think I would probably have sleepless nights and I'd have worries. I'm not sure that I actually had Kathryn to, you know, always rely on because she had a job that was stressful and that sort of thing.

 

But I think just having the confidence that I did allowed me to do some things. I don't remember being nervous. I know Kathryn was probably at times more nervous than I was. But I just kind of just felt like work, determination, and some grit. We'd get through even the toughest times, wherever those toughest times happened to land. And there were ups and downs like any other business cycle. But we're pretty proud of

 

I you.

 

Al Firkins (29:00.792)

the hard work, dedication, know, 52 years later we can still sit around and have a conversation about it all.

 

I love it. I think

 

I find because I also purchased the family businesses from my father, there's a lot that goes into the pride of doing that. for me at least, there was definitely some sleepless nights. The value of the business was more than my house. was the biggest agreement that I had ever signed. So, and a lot of pressure of the what ifs.

 

you know, having lived through a 2008 and a 2009 from the wealth management side of things, it was very, you know, it was 2018. Thankfully, we made it through even 2020 wasn't a, it was a nothing for us in terms of, you know, making sure that dad received his check every quarter the way that he was supposed to.

 

I think the challenging part in the middle of it was not just the business planning. When my father started in 72, we were on Eastridge Road in Aaroniquite and we had needed to expand. So he bought a building that was over on Hollenbeck Street in the city and it served us very, very well for a short period of time. But again, for us to continue, we needed to evolve and get back to a bit more of a friendlier retail location. And I think that's probably where some of the stress comes in.

 

Dave Firkins (30:32.238)

It was not the fact that I didn't know where the business was going, but purchasing another building outright really probably pushed Kathryn a little bit harder than she needed to at the time, because we had young kids and the business was still growing, which required an awful lot of determination and dedication to kind of keep that going, because not only did we have a business, but we were attempting to put the building out there so that we could be in a different spot than we had ever been, which is,

 

back to retail central and around the court.

 

And I think with that, much like when I met Dave and I knew what his passion was and what he wanted to do with the business, and I can remember specifically, you know, Dave coming to me and we had two very young children in school and me with a separate career and said, you know, I really think for the next phase of the business, the next chapter, really

 

want us, you and I, to buy this building and then I want to put an addition on it for a warehouse. Dave and I talk about that quite frequently, that yes, I was nervous about it, but he asked that of me, of us, and I had no hesitation because he said this is what I feel we need to do in order to move the business forward.

 

And it was a lot. We were buying the company from Al, and then we were buying and renovating and putting an addition on a building. in the kind of in the everything happens for a reason category, I trusted that he knew the reason and that this was where things needed to go. so we did it, and it worked out for the best.

 

Michael Palumbos (32:34.658)

talk about the future of the business a little bit. Let's start talking about where are you going and what does it look like in the next 10 to 20 years. But if you're looking at, know, right now, what would you say are three of the biggest priorities for the business in the next three to five years?

 

The next three to five is going to be a very serious transition from Kathryn and I to Conor and having an awful lot more responsibility placed on his shoulders. Conor mentioned one thing that happened in the past year which was a major renovation of the showroom. So we've set our showroom apart. We think we have by and large the best

 

tile flooring stone showroom in all of upstate New York. So we've set ourselves up for that for some serious growth. Our commercial business continues to be strong.

 

Conor will be involved with that end as well. So in the next short term, I don't want to say business as usual, but it's going to be pedal to the metal with what we've got going on in Rochester with our showroom. And same with commercial work. We'll continue to push the envelope and bring in products and services that we think uniquely fit the markets that we enter into and currently work with.

 

Great. Conor, what about from your perspective, aside from what your dad just said, taking on more responsibility yourself, what are some of the priorities that you guys have talked about?

 

Conor Firkins (34:08.174)

You know, like he said, think we've set ourselves up really well for the future, especially here in Rochester. But I think one of the things that's going to be really one of my priorities is finding the right team to help me set myself up for the future. Finding, know, because right now I'm doing regional sales, I'm out on the road every single day. I cannot be out on the road every day and also running a business at the same time and doing all the things that my father does when he's in his office.

 

you know, finding the right team to help me continue to grow this business both residentially and commercially. And then, you know, even though tile and stone is kind of a very old thing, it's been around for thousands of years, it's constantly changing. Technology is constantly adding new products and new styles and new designs. So being out of the curve and always staying kind of on top of things. You that's one of the things we've always sort of prided ourselves on is being ahead of the curve and being ahead of the next trend.

 

Staying on top of those things are really important to me. And then, know, easing that transition so that my parents can enjoy some much needed time off and I can take that responsibility on my shoulders is something I'm really looking forward to.

 

Talk about that for just a second. You mentioned, you know, staying in front of the curve and seeing what's coming down the pike. What are some of the ways that you're doing that today? You know, are there associations or groups that you're involved in that help you to keep your fingers on the pulse of what's happening out there?

 

Absolutely, I mean there's a couple things that we do to kind of stay ahead of the curve. One of things is that there's a large tile and stone show every single year. called Coverings. This year it's being held in Orlando, so that's something that we usually go to every single year and it's where manufacturers that not only we work with, but other ones that we might want to work with are displaying new products or new technologies or a new innovation in the tile and stone world so that we can kind of look at it and get ahead of it and not only.

 

Conor Firkins (36:07.234)

get ahead of it but see what trends are upcoming. Rochester tends to lag behind the rest of the major metro markets by about five to seven years in terms of trends, but when we see things at these big shows, it helps us get an idea of what might be coming down the pike later on. Another thing that I'm a part of is the National Kitchen and Bath Association, which is comprised of kitchen and bath designers and kitchen and bath showrooms.

 

you know, being able to network and talk with those designers and see, you know, what their clients are asking them for and what their clients are looking for and what trends they're seeing. It helps us, you know, stay ahead of things. It helps us kind of figure out what we might be missing in our showroom or what our customers might be asking for in the next couple of years. So those are a couple of ways that we try to stay ahead of things.

 

Talk about competition for a moment. When you look at, you know, upstate New York, the area that you serve, how do you gauge yourself against competition today?

 

I mean, you know, there's always going be competition. know, something that my father's instilled in me and I think, you know, my grandfather instilled in him is that, you know, we've been competing against everybody for 52 years and there's been big box stores, there's been other flooring or tile stores that have come along the way and we're still standing 52 years later. So, you know, right now it's the age of the big box store. It's the age of, you know, the online shopping. So there's competition at every angle, but, you know, we try to set ourselves apart by providing.

 

the best knowledge, the best service, and the best style and selection that you'll find in not only the Rochester area, but the upstate New York area. competition is not something that we're necessarily afraid of, it's something that we embrace because it helps push us to not only have better products, but have better service and have a better tile shopping experience as a whole.

 

Dave Firkins (37:59.606)

I think my dad said it best, you start with service and the products can sort of become secondary, but if you out service or outwork your competitor,

 

there's a place for us and i think that's what we continue to do and i do remember my dad saying it's just you pounded through service service service and i think that is what we are known for uh... people get ahold of us they get a hold of me they can get ahold of katherine and get a hold of Conor uh... were easily accessible and that's just part of the service but i think that's one of the things that set this apart is that dedication

 

I think it's fair at this point of the show to talk about how this came about. I happen to be shopping in their showroom and I can attest to there's a huge variety there and the salesperson that I worked with was phenomenal. Casey did a really great job of helping me to understand what was in my wife's head and

 

provided me with some examples and samples just quickly was able to take what was in my head and start showing me pictures of things that I'm like, yep, yes, no, yes, no. And we were just, it was really quick and easy to get through. And I understand it's probably not that way for everybody, but I think Casey did a great job of helping me narrow down the field of all the different ideas that could have been there.

 

my wife did not want to be part of the picking out of this, you know, of the tile, only because she knew that she gets paralysis of analysis. And she's like, I'm going to be here for too long trying to make the choices. And, you know, we didn't come up with the exact right design the first time, but with one iteration, it was perfect. So I really want to say thank you to you guys. And the showroom was great.

 

Michael Palumbos (40:03.596)

The selection of tile that we utilized, I thought was very right up what we were looking for. So appreciate that.

 

Thank you.

 

I do want to make a serious mention of that. Conor kind of brought it up, but we're only as good as the people that we surround ourselves with.

 

and and having a great staff in the showroom having a top-notch outside sales team for both residential commercial having a top-notch general manager that takes care of the things for us including overseeing fantastic warehouse crew without good people were were just not there so i i i want to make sure that we're mentioning that as you go forward that something you gotta really remember is that surrounding yourself with good people will allow you to make good decisions as well

 

Absolutely.

 

Michael Palumbos (40:51.15)

Talk about what do you see as the obstacles over the next three to five years as you're going through this next transition, looking at what's happening in the world today in terms of the economy and changes just in the industry. What are the

 

What are the obstacles that you've looked at to say, what do we do about these and how are we addressing them?

 

I think I mentioned a little bit earlier, one of the biggest obstacles that we're experiencing is people shopping online and people trying to go and pick things out on their own without really knowing what they're looking at. So as part of our showroom model, we also revamped our website in order to better reach out to the consumer and give them more knowledge and a better idea of what they might be looking for before they come into our showroom.

 

So the age of technology is not something that we're scared of, it's something that we're embracing. We know we have to be, again, ahead of the curve. We know we have to be on top of our game when it comes to online shopping and things like that. So again, it's just something that we're embracing, even though it is little bit of an obstacle. It's something that we're ready to face head on.

 

It's interesting with respect to online shopping, the horror stories, for lack of a better way to describe it, that we have heard from customers who come into the showroom who actually attempted to do their projects in that manner. And I think that is a huge tool for us to learn how to speak with those customers and how to assist those customers and to take

 

Kathryn Firkins (42:38.41)

a negative experience that they had had trying to purchase that type of material online and turn it into a positive experience where they end up with a project that they are happy with, that they're proud of, and that they had an easier time of in dealing directly with someone with knowledge in the industry and state-of-the-art products like we have. So much like your experience in our showroom.

 

And what Dave talked about with respect to service is that you know you can press a couple of keys on your computer and order pretty much anything but you're really missing out on a lot of the parts and pieces within our industry if you're not dealing with someone who has the knowledge of how to utilize the products and what works best where.

 

Yeah, in my experience with your company, know, Casey was taking me through everything from the grout and the colors of that and just things that I wouldn't have thought about and how that all comes together and it was really helpful. Kathryn, I want to come back to you. You have kids in and out of the business. What is that like from your perspective?

 

Well, it's interesting when Conor mentioned after college he went off and had sales positions with another company and he was actually progressing very well with that company. know, Dave and I have already have always talked about it. It was the boomerang theory with the kids. Our daughter is the older of the two children.

 

and she moved out to California after she graduated. was in California for several years then in Colorado and she has really made her mark in a completely different industry and she is very happy with that. Conor started to make his mark in another industry and realized that he too, much like Dave, had the passion for our family business and

 

Kathryn Firkins (44:49.906)

you know, kind of the decision making that his aha moment of being that I want to return home and I want to be that third generation. So proud as can possibly be of both of them for all of their achievements in their respective fields and we're very fortunate that they're both happy with what they're doing, which really at the end of the day isn't that all you want is you just want the kids to be doing something

 

that they're happy with. So we're lucky.

 

Beautiful. Let's talk about any other organizations that you utilize outside of the industry for advice and for feedback or books that you've read. Where else are you getting data and information and educating yourselves about the business?

 

Well, there's one particular book that I think has been passed down from my grandfather to my father to me. We actually found it when we were getting ready to do our showroom model. I'm gonna draw a blank on the exact name, but I think it's, you know, 101 Sales Tips, and it's this giant leather book that... Do you remember what I'm talking about? And as old as that book is, I mean, it's got examples of, you know, people selling life insurance. It's got examples of people selling products that...

 

Yes I do.

 

Conor Firkins (46:17.94)

don't exist in today's world, it has some really, really thoughtful and well thought out theories that I think have helped my grandfather grow into sort of a selling position when he was starting to grow the business and help my father when he was trying to tap into a new market with the commercial products that we were carrying. And it helped me transition into a sales role where we're covering a much larger footprint. So that's one of the books that it's actually sitting in my office right now if I'm ever just kind of

 

you know, thinking about how I want to maybe tackle something, I'll still go back and I'll look at it and I'll read through it and it's something that is helpful, regardless of how old it might be.

 

I think I can't pinpoint a specific book, but I will speak to how my husband spends the majority of his time. And how he spends the majority of his time is research, reading, and really embracing all things new and different. And I think

 

it that played right into our showroom remodel because his vision for the technology in the showroom really came to fruition and was was more than we even imagined and that came from his research in his reading of how to do business differently and he can speak to the the different things that he reads about but it's constantly educating oneself on what's coming down the pike and that can be product that can be

 

advertising, can be marketing strategies, it can be so many different things and both Conor and Dave really stay on the cusp of all of that through all of their reading that they do. I myself am doing the pleasure reading but...

 

Dave Firkins (48:09.102)

What I would say is that much like any other business or even team, analytics plays a huge part in...

 

what we're doing and where we're going and we have so much data available to us that I spend a lot of time looking at that data. It's who's buying product, what the demographic looks like, what is the demographic that we're trying to appeal to, and then when I'm looking at those different demographics, that's what I'm trying to read into is get some research on how do I do business as a near 60-year-old with somebody that might be 24 or 25 coming out of college because I

 

may not understand where that's coming from. I don't know if it's a specific book, but I think it's a lot of interactions, it's asking a lot of questions, and it's huge on listening. It's listening everywhere I go and listening to what happens, be it at a restaurant or be it at a sporting event. Just try to take all that in and take that information, put it all together, and then take the analytics and the data that we're given and say, what can we do and how do we put that forth in our business to make the correct decisions?

 

So whatever that reading is, wherever that reading comes from, that's kind of where we put things in place.

 

I think listening too, and I can speak for myself on this, I've spent the past several years really listening to the employees. I'm out with customers all the time and working with customers, and I'm a really great listener when it comes to customers. I think one of the things that has improved our business and improved our relationship with the wonderful staff that we have is listening to

 

Kathryn Firkins (49:56.438)

what their needs are and how they think that they can operate better, how they think that they can be more successful employees. And really the showroom remodel had a lot to do with that as well. Providing them with the tools that they needed in order to be successful, even more successful.

 

that desire to continue learning that the whole family has embraced, I think is super helpful in what you're doing. I just wanna make a comment about 101 sales tips. I definitely wanna go looking for that book. then, you every single business, there are several things that are the same. And you for...

 

But

 

Michael Palumbos (50:41.686)

are talking about them all the same way. One, you have people, whether they be customers or the people that work for you or the family members that you're working with on a daily basis. And people is the common denominator in every single business. And we forget that sometimes. And I think we just need to remind ourselves that we're not in the tile business first. We're in the people business first. And Conor, you said,

 

101 sales tips, I will tell you that your company does not do sales. No, you are very consultative and very helpful in what you're doing. But at the end of the day, the sales tips, it's helps us to be better communicators and to allow yourself to be that consultative person because of the way that you're communicating those ideas.

 

So I'm very much looking forward to grabbing and seeing if I can't find that book someplace.

 

Print a hundred years.

 

No, but it does teach you like you said a lot of you know Not necessarily ways to sell somebody but ways to communicate more effectively with people Yeah, you know, we don't expect anyone walking through our doors to be you know a tile and stone expert That's not their job. That's that's our job and it starts with you know Even if you ask my grandfather right now to name off a couple tiles that he sold back in the day He can still tell you all the specifications the names the where they came from what they were made of And that's what we try to be to our customers that walk in the door today

 

Conor Firkins (52:13.19)

They come to us for our expertise, for our knowledge, and for us to communicate that effectively and not make it confusing and more stressful than it needs to be. Like you said, when you walk into our showroom, there's a lot to choose from. But being able to talk to a friendly face that is able to communicate and kind of understand what your wants and needs and likes and dislikes are are things that are super, super important to us.

 

Yeah, I think the one thing you've got to continue to do is keep learning. You've got to learn something new every day. Even though I'm retired for quite a few years now, I still try to learn something new, not necessarily related to the tile business, but I learn something new every day. And I think that's important in business to learn something new every day because business changes every day.

 

Agreed, agreed. A couple of things. So you gave me a title of a book. I appreciate that. We're always looking for ways to help other people out there. If you're sitting on a panel talking to a group of family-owned businesses yourselves right now, what, and I'd like each of you, know, from your perspective, what's the best pieces of advice that you might

 

in part with them as your parting words to the audience.

 

Dave Firkins (53:34.594)

Dad, you got to think about that one? You can go ahead. I'll let you start. Well, I think you have to remember for me how it all began. And so when I said that earlier, I harked back on a lot of what would my dad do.

 

and then i've taken that in in embrace that and try to pass that along to future generations so i would say to other people remember the history pay attention to the history because you can be better for knowing it

 

you can make mistakes that's fine and and we're certainly not perfect we're not perfect people are perfect company but if we take all of those mistakes and what we've learned from the past we will be a much better company a much better organization in the future so i think if someone is asking me what should happen with family businesses listen and pay attention to the history and try to learn from it

 

Dave Firkins (54:35.052)

I think I've, when I talk to Conor and we talk business a lot, I always try to remind him the old days and what we did and how we did it and how things done 50 some years ago. Some of the actions and what we do still apply today. And I think anytime that he has a question, he always picks my brain and it's kind of nice.

 

I think if I were to give advice to somebody, first of all, don't know if I'm really in a position to give advice to anybody. only 28 years old. I've only been doing this for a short period of time. But I think one of the downfalls of lot of family businesses is that younger generations tend to just kind of try to run with their ideas and not honor the history of their past generations. And you can learn a lot from those past generations. There's a lot of mistakes. There's a lot of lessons. There's a lot of ups and downs that

 

I can take from my father's experience, my grandfather's experience, and being able to take those lessons and apply them to how I want to run the business in the future, whether it's how I want to do things differently or how I want to keep things the same. You can't just not listen to the generations that came before you. It's important to take those lessons that both of them have learned and apply them and figure out how I can best suit themselves for myself in the future.

 

now there's some percentages that will tell you when you go from first generation to second generation that your survival rate is is not great and then by the time you go from second generation third generation it's even harder what drove me more than anything was the desire to make sure that that second generation was was there and that we were successful and and i would hope that is Conor 's thinking it through that's something that drives him as well that

 

not only is there a legacy sitting there that you've got three generations that you can rely upon but the hard work the dedication that you're gonna have to put forth is what's going to be needed for you to break those percentages as you go from generation two to generation three

 

Kathryn Firkins (56:34.35)

I think that with respect to advice, from my perspective, at the end of the day, you're still family members. And I think a lot of family businesses, unfortunately, lose sight of that. success, both as a family and success as a business, they don't always go hand in hand.

 

But when they can, you've really achieved something.

 

Agreed. I want to come back to what Dave was talking about for just a second there, talking about, you know, the parable or the proverb, think is the shirt sleeves, the shirt sleeves and three generations, right? And that is, you know, talked about over and over again. And it is,

 

the stick that everybody's afraid of. I want to put it out as a carrot though for just a second, talk about it from a positive perspective. You guys have been around, it's 52 years now you said? Correct. Yeah, so if you look at the average, you know, how long most of the S &P 500 companies have been on the S &P 500, you've beat most of them. So you've got a lot to be proud of.

 

even where you stand right the second. And one of the things that I try to instill in people is, Conor, you did a really good job of talking about the past generations. but at the same time, I'd throw to you to just think about yourself as the first generation. And if you have first generation thinking, meaning, know, think of

 

Michael Palumbos (58:26.094)

think about this from the, you know, what do I need to do for this to be successful? What do I, you know, I'm not taking away from honoring what happened in the past, but if you, if the only reason you're making decisions is based on the legacy of the family and whatnot, you may not always be looking at the future in the manner that you need to. The family's done a phenomenal job, 52 years. think today the average S &P 500 company,

 

If I'm not mistaken, it's around 15 years is what's typical. you're three times that and then some. So lots to be proud of. Lots to be proud of.

 

I think it's interesting that what Dave and I oftentimes talk about is, you know, Dave will say, well, you know, I don't know what if, you know, he makes this kind of decision. And I said, well, we need to recognize just like your father recognize that he's going to make decisions that are the decisions for the future of the business that he is running. And, you know, that's that way back to the beginning of the conversation where we talked about trust.

 

And that's what it's all about is that Al trusted Dave, Dave and I trust Conor. And I know for one that he's going to do very well because of the past, but also because he's got his eye on the future. And the sky's going to be the limit.

 

Well, think there's a tremendous amount of consolidation that's occurring in the industry. So the big are getting bigger and we're sitting there is independence. don't think I would use the word small, but we're independent. One of the things that allows us to be different is we can make decisions very quickly. We can adapt to market changes very quickly. And I think that's what gives us an advantage and where Conor will have an advantage in the future is that

 

Dave Firkins (01:00:24.212)

as the industry continues to evolve and continue to have consolidation getting bigger will be one of those few companies that can just turn on a dime and say this is the decision that makes sense today because it will make sense for what's happening in the future

 

Last question for each of you is, and my gut says it's going to be unanimous, but outside of the business, your favorite family tradition.

 

together.

 

Dave Firkins (01:00:58.604)

Well, go ahead, Kathryn. You were ready to jump in.

 

Well, for better, for worse, we're huge Buffalo Bills fans. And, you know, I'm from Buffalo originally. My father-in-law is from Buffalo originally. It was a prerequisite that when I met Dave in college that he was a Bills fan or he would have been out. So, you know, I think that's something that we enjoy both the excitement of it, the frustration of it. But yeah.

 

Bills fans. Huge Bills fans.

 

Thank you. Well, thank you everybody. You've been listening to the Family Biz Show. I'm your host, Michael Palumbos with Family Wealth and Legacy in Rochester, New York. And just a huge thank you to the Firkins family and Tile Wholesalers. You guys have been wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us today. Have a great day everybody.

 

Thank you.